Scottish Snaphaunce

[MacRob46]

I am going out on a limb here, but not too far, by saying that I do not think that is a 17th c. Scottish gun. As you may know, only 27 reliably dated 17th c. Scottish National long guns are known to exist and this particular gun does not resemble any of those other than it is a snaphaunce with a ball trigger. Without getting into a lot of laborious detail, these are the reasons I feel this way. 1. The butt stock does not resemble the style of most known Scottish National guns. Most of these guns, like the one which Carp shows in his post, have a graceful paddle butt stock, usually with carved flutes. That is not universal among the 27 surviving guns but all of them do have a grace that is lacking in this piece. 2. It looks like there were barrel bands on the stock at one time and one remains at the muzzle. Barrel bands, while not completely unknown in the 17th c., were not found on Scottish National pieces. Most long guns in that century were secured with pins or keys. Even the Breadalbane gun, with its 67 inch barrel, has pins rather than bands 3. The decorations on the stock are crude and have no counterpart on Scottish long guns. Ditto for the stamping on the barrel. 4. The lock is in very good condition compared to the condition of the gun over all. The inletting for the lock is crude as are the lock nails. The lock has no maker's name, initials or date or engraving which virtually excludes it as a product of one of the makers of Scottish National style long guns. The battery looks cast rather than forged then filed to shape. The lock plate, while really not too long for a Scottish piece, does not have the usual quality of filed decorative finial on the tail. 5. The steel ramrod, which has already been mentioned, is an aberration in a 17th c. gun. They were still using wood in those days. 6. The ball trigger appears to be one piece (possbily cast). Ball triggers on Scottish long guns and pistols were made with a theaded shaft onto which the ball was screwed.

Now, I suppose you could opine that this gun was a military musket rather than made for the civilian market. However, the decoration of the stock and barrel, crude as it is, would not support that theory.

IMHO this is probably a N. African or Middle Eastern gun made long after the 17th c. It could also be from the Balkans area. I believe, given the extreme rarity of Scottish National guns, that if this were a 17th Scottish long gun it would be in a museum right now. There are far too few of these guns around to have escaped the notice of serious collectors or museum staff. Some sort of provenance for the piece would answer a lot of questions.

 

[rickystl]

UPDATE: Just now received an email from the owner. They are going to use the CO2 extractor tonight.
So we should hear something this week. Keep your fingers crossed. :haha: Rick.

 

[Matt85]

hopefully hes carefull and does not lose the powder, wadding, or ball. i also hope he takes lotsa of pics preferably with a measure of some sort in the picture so we can judge size.

-matt

 

[rickystl]

Hi Matt. Yes, he said he would take all the precautions you mentioned. However, here is the latest response I just received:

Hi Rick,
Deep disappointment, there must be a small gap twixt ball and barrel, we tried two CO2 cartridges but no movement. What did come out was an amount of brown fibrous material which I assume to be a part of the wadding from around the ball. I will send you some photos of this tomorrow. I have ordered up a 54cal threaded ball remover so maybe!!!! I'm really sorry for the continued disappointment. It may after all be only a plug but I still have hopes of something more. Hoping this finds you in good health and spirits.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

Looks like we will still be waiting a while. :shake: Do any of you have any additional ideas? Rick.

 

[BillinOregon]

Description sounds like tow!

 

[Many Klatch]

When I have to remove a really, really stuck ball I have a few tricks that help.

1) As already mentioned water or oil poured down the barrel, enough to soak the patch or where the ball is touching the barrel. (With the tow that is being removed, there is a good chance that there was never any patching around the ball)

2) A ball puller with a caliber sized washer around it will keep the screw centered on the ball. A lot of the commercially available ball pullers have fairly small screws and I give it a better than even chance the screw will pull out.

3) Here comes the trick. I keep several sized screw tips to remove a stuck ball. If the first one pulls out, it will leave a nice pilot hole for the middle sized screw that I use. If that one doesn't work, the small lag screw that I use for the largest ball puller will work. He may have to find someone that can thread the end of a couple of wood screws to fit his rod.

He will need a steel rod and three different sizes of screw to pull that ball. A "T" handle is nice because it can be stuck in the rafters and allow a nice steady downward pull.

I will interested to see the load when he finally gets it pulled. Especially the size grains of the powder.

Many Klatch

 

[rickystl]

Hi Many. Some great suggestions. I'll pass this along to the owner. Thanks! Rick.

 

[rickystl]

Just received an email mentioning he will receive the ball puller Wednesday, 02/13 and hopefully have some results a day or two after. Keep your fingers crossed. :haha: Rick.

 

[MacRob46]

I have a feeling that, when he gets the ball out there will not be any powder behind it.

 

[rickystl]

Hello all. Well, here's another update:

Hi Rick,
I see you are back on the Forum so here's an update. I cannot get the FFFFFing ball/obstruction out of the barrel. I tried the water but absolutely no luck, I got a decent hold on whatever is down there but I just couldn't get it to move. It has taken quite a while to dry out but has now so I have now poured some mineral oil down the barrel, yesterday in fact, and I'm going to leave it for a few weeks in the hope it might completely coat the 'ball' and aid extraction. I now feel like a real idiot the only guy in the world who can't get a ball out of a barrel. Part of me feels like putting a fuse in the touchhole, and well, you can guess the rest. My 87yr old mum was taken into hospital a month ago so in all honesty I cannot say my complete attention has been focused on this 'little' problem but it is beginning to really bug me. I'm sorry the actuality has not lived up to the expectations and this is definitely my last shot at this. I will of course keep you up to date. Apologies for the continued disappointment.
Kind Regards'
Norman.

 

[buzz]

Might suggest kroil oil fill the barrelso you have about an 1'' above the ball let it sit until you see it drip out the touch hole

 

[rickystl]

Hi Buzz. That's a good idea. That Kroil oil is great stuff. Thanks, Rick.

 

[MacRob46]

Are we ever going to hear any more about this gun? I posted my personal feeling that it is not Scottish at all, although the lock might be and am just looking for more information from the owner. An update would be interesting.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rob. Good idea! Have not heard back in a long time. I'll contact him again to see if I can find anything out. YES!! This started out to be a really good thread. I'll get back. Rick. :thumbsup:

 

[MacRob46]

Thanks..I am not burning up with curiosity but have a special interest in Scottish long guns and so anything to do with them gets my attention. I will look forward to more information.

 

[krolick]

It was about this time last year I first saw this gun on this sight. I've spent much time closely looking at the images of this most interesting piece. I believe it's a composite made item made in the later half of the 19th century. It was quite fashionable to make up antiquities as decorators. I do believe the lock to be a true Scottish lock - late 17th or very early 18th century. Certainly, one of the last of the snaphaunce the Scotts made before finally going to flint. There are many things that lead me to this conclusion. One of them is the barrel - its Spanish. The identical prof marks I found in Spanish Guns and Pistols by W Keith Neal - on page 99 Esquibel, Diego 1690-1732. Also, the load in the barrel gave me clues. Then as now, guns are salted to increase the value by putting a inert load in. Legitimate guns that are load for a century or more have very different traits, much corrosion in the breech powder is very hydroscopic. Usually the powder has turned into a rust concretion and lead has oxidized to a white color and there is debris left from nesting bugs. Having made many more observations on this piece, I still feel its' parts were at least from the time period of its use. Several of the museum Scottish guns are also pieced together in the same fashion. Based on that. I think this gun is a good study piece and the lock on its own warrants a note in Scottish gun history. GS

 

[Philip Chua]

Hello all. This gun was recently aquired by a collector friend. Later half of the 17th Century Scottish Snaphaunce musket.
AND, there is a load in the barrel :shocked2:
Since he is a muzzle loading shooter he said the metal ramrod goes down the barrel all but about 2" in front of the vent hole. He also said it has the unmistakable feel/sound of iron against lead. Of course it may just be an obstruction, but the circumstances do indicate the possibility of a load still being in the barrel.
My question is: We know the traditional way to remove the ball. But, are there any other methods anyone might suggest? Any help appreciated. Thanks, Rick.

this is beautiful

 

[Rudyard]

I am going out on a limb here, but not too far, by saying that I do not think that is a 17th c. Scottish gun. As you may know, only 27 reliably dated 17th c. Scottish National long guns are known to exist and this particular gun does not resemble any of those other than it is a snaphaunce with a ball trigger. Without getting into a lot of laborious detail, these are the reasons I feel this way. 1. The butt stock does not resemble the style of most known Scottish National guns. Most of these guns, like the one which Carp shows in his post, have a graceful paddle butt stock, usually with carved flutes. That is not universal among the 27 surviving guns but all of them do have a grace that is lacking in this piece. 2. It looks like there were barrel bands on the stock at one time and one remains at the muzzle. Barrel bands, while not completely unknown in the 17th c., were not found on Scottish National pieces. Most long guns in that century were secured with pins or keys. Even the Breadalbane gun, with its 67 inch barrel, has pins rather than bands 3. The decorations on the stock are crude and have no counterpart on Scottish long guns. Ditto for the stamping on the barrel. 4. The lock is in very good condition compared to the condition of the gun over all. The inletting for the lock is crude as are the lock nails. The lock has no maker's name, initials or date or engraving which virtually excludes it as a product of one of the makers of Scottish National style long guns. The battery looks cast rather than forged then filed to shape. The lock plate, while really not too long for a Scottish piece, does not have the usual quality of filed decorative finial on the tail. 5. The steel ramrod, which has already been mentioned, is an aberration in a 17th c. gun. They were still using wood in those days. 6. The ball trigger appears to be one piece (possbily cast). Ball triggers on Scottish long guns and pistols were made with a theaded shaft onto which the ball was screwed.

Now, I suppose you could opine that this gun was a military musket rather than made for the civilian market. However, the decoration of the stock and barrel, crude as it is, would not support that theory.

IMHO this is probably a N. African or Middle Eastern gun made long after the 17th c. It could also be from the Balkans area. I believe, given the extreme rarity of Scottish National guns, that if this were a 17th Scottish long gun it would be in a museum right now. There are far too few of these guns around to have escaped the notice of serious collectors or museum staff. Some sort of provenance for the piece would answer a lot of questions.

Well what you say is certainly true re survivor's Known What Mr McLane has Ive no idea but the O P might be mistaken.saying he has an original. Piece . As for this Piece I wouldn't rule it out yes it varies but so few survivers exist and its bold to say we know all other varients . For my part I made 7 long arms & three Lemon butts & one later all steel issue sorts . One long gun I used a very thin walled old rifled Brl probably middle east but the bore half decent I stocked it up but used Capucine's rather than loops .(I took it hunting didn't burst ) However non of these are' Documents' in any way relavant to the study beyond interest. Two additional I made' Conjectural 'Lunt Werk' Viz . 'Matchlock's non survive but old texts reffer to' Luntwerk &' Rowet Werk' _ Matchlocks & Wheel locks we don't know What they looked like . but then non can say there wrong !.Interesting topic and what ever it is that gun exists .and fuels our interest .
Rudyard Student of arms

Thanks!

I've seen and held an original one of these pieces, owned by Glenn McClain. They look awkward and weird, but they actually shoulder quite well and are nicely balanced.

I envy the lucky fellows who have managed to lay hands on one...!

That would be good but its doubtfull a replica very likley original ? nope .
Rudyard

 

[UXCZ]

The traditional method of removing a load from a barrel involves using a wooden dowel or brass cleaning rod to push the ball out. It's essential to use a material that won't damage the barrel. You can lubricate the barrel and gently tap the dowel or rod with a hammer to ease the process.
Another method involves removing the nipple and replacing it with a grease zerk fitting. This allows you to use a grease gun to apply pressure and force the ball out.
Some have also used a battery drill with a small drill bit to carefully drill out the center of the bullet, making it easier to remove with a wooden dowel.
Always approach this situation with care and patience. If you're unsure or uncomfortable with any of these methods, consult a professional gunsmith to ensure safety.

 

[Philip Chua]

Whilst we are on the topic - does anyone have any pics of a trigger/bar from a Scottish Snaphaunce like this? I have seen the one that comes from Rifle Shoppe with has a more traditional trigger shoe look. I am
Meaning the beaded trigger such as the ones seen in the pics above or as you would see on a middle eastern Miquelet. I can’t even find a diagram showing one!!!