Rifles of the Fur Trade

[shorthair]

The preferred rifle was likely to be whichever one was loaded and to hand, since staying alive was something that would have been important to them. I would think.

 

[Nwtradegunner]

The Northwest Trade Gun is the most popular. Available in kit form or ready made. Track of the Wolf has the kits. Theirs require a bit more skill than a beginner can handle. Caywood puts out both kit guns and completed ones. Pedersoli has a complete one also. 62 caliber is fairly commo but other calibers are available. These are smoothbore and only have a front sight. It can take a while to get used to shooting one accurately and consistently. Shot can also be used in them.

 

[Dphar1950]

The Northwest Trade Gun is the most popular. Available in kit form or ready made. Track of the Wolf has the kits. Theirs require a bit more skill than a beginner can handle. Caywood puts out both kit guns and completed ones. Pedersoli has a complete one also. 62 caliber is fairly commo but other calibers are available. These are smoothbore and only have a front sight. It can take a while to get used to shooting one accurately and consistently. Shot can also be used in them.

Most popular with whom? I must ask since the trappers, by and large, even those from Eastern Woodland tribes like the Delaware etc were rifle armed. Largely because on the prairie, unless running buffalo, is basically useless. And it was known by the 1740s in the East that the rifle was more economical. Well at least the traders wanted the sale of rifles to the tribes outlawed by the 1750s as did the military. I would also point out that “accurately” is a relative thing when talking a smoothbore ESPECIALLY back in the day when the various trade guns East or West were made as cheaply as possible. The cheapest thing the could get the natives to buy.

 

[HighUintas]

. The ETC has other features which would surprise most here but I will not discuss since two collaborators and I are seeking to get an article published on this rifle in a peer reviewed journal.

Is this still in the works and can you give an estimated date on when we might see it in a journal? I need to be on the lookout as I'm immensely excited to read all you've discovered on this rifle.

 

[Cruzatte]

Most popular with whom?

Canadians, and those natives used to trading with the NW Co. and HBC.

 

[bigted]

I hope @Dphar1950 won't mind if I insert a couple of pictures to augment his excellent post. This is the early (circa 1835) J&S Hawken from the Montana Historical Society that he mentioned in post #26 above:

View attachment 250513

...and the silver cheek piece inlay with the E.T.C. St. Louis engraving:

View attachment 250514

You can see more than a dozen additional pictures that provide a great deal of information about this rifle on the MHS Museum Collections website: Early J&S Hawken

The MHS also has the Jim Bridger Hawken on virtual display. While the MHS Bridger Hawken is of a later vintage, its documented association with the well-known mountain man and provenance are impeccable: Jim Bridger Hawken

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Very interesting Notchy Bob. Do you know the calibre of his rifle?

 

[bud in pa]

There is a small rendezvous held at Boulton every year. The museum has a few Henry guns on display.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Very interesting Notchy Bob. Do you know the calibre of his rifle?

I think the J.&S. Hawken owned by the Montana Historical Society, often called the "ETC" Hawken because of the initials engraved on the cheekpiece inlay, is .50 caliber.

This is the rifle pictured in a pen and ink drawing by Ed Webber on page 89 of John Baird's Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode. Baird wrote about Webber making an exacting copy of the original rifle in the September 1978 issue of The Buckskin Report. In that note, Baird stated that "...the original is in .50 caliber..." Baird and Webber wanted to make a bench copy of the original in order to provide "...a high-quality Hawken rifle to be used as a pattern rifle by Uberti..." The plan was for the Italian company to put these into production, to be imported and marketed by the Allen Firearms Mfg. Company's Western Arms Corp. There is a photo of Marilee Allen holding one of the Uberti reproductions in the February 1980 Buckskin Report. You can read the whole story on the GRRW Collectors website, right here: Uberti Santa Fe Hawken

I don't know what happened to the Ed Webber copy of the original rifle, or the Uberti copy that Mrs. Allen was holding.

That's a long answer to a simple question, but you sometimes have to really dig for that sort of information. So, I think it's .50 caliber based on John Baird's comments, but I'm not certain. @Dphar1950 can probably tell you for sure.

I will say that I hope Mr. Kibler will take a look at this J&S Hawken rifle in planning his Kibler Hawken kit. Jake and Sam started working together in about 1825. Jacob died in 1849, and Sam soldiered on for a few more years. I believe Watt bought the shop in 1860. Over the years that the Hawken shop was in business, their rifles evolved in form. It is generally acknowledged that the earlier, J&S rifles were more slender and graceful, although to my eye, the post-1850 Hawkens are still beautiful guns. Most of the Hawken replicas you see are based on the later S. Hawken replicas. It would be refreshing to see the earlier styled rifles better represented.

...stop typing, Bob...

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Hermit Tim]

I think the J.&S. Hawken owned by the Montana Historical Society, often called the "ETC" Hawken because of the initials engraved on the cheekpiece inlay, is .50 caliber.

This is the rifle pictured in a pen and ink drawing by Ed Webber on page 89 of John Baird's Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode. Baird wrote about Webber making an exacting copy of the original rifle in the September 1978 issue of The Buckskin Report. In that note, Baird stated that "...the original is in .50 caliber..." Baird and Webber wanted to make a bench copy of the original in order to provide "...a high-quality Hawken rifle to be used as a pattern rifle by Uberti..." The plan was for the Italian company to put these into production, to be imported and marketed by the Allen Firearms Mfg. Company's Western Arms Corp. There is a photo of Marilee Allen holding one of the Uberti reproductions in the February 1980 Buckskin Report. You can read the whole story on the GRRW Collectors website, right here: Uberti Santa Fe Hawken

I don't know what happened to the Ed Webber copy of the original rifle, or the Uberti copy that Mrs. Allen was holding.

That's a long answer to a simple question, but you sometimes have to really dig for that sort of information. So, I think it's .50 caliber based on John Baird's comments, but I'm not certain. @Dphar1950 can probably tell you for sure.

I will say that I hope Mr. Kibler will take a look at this J&S Hawken rifle in planning his Kibler Hawken kit. Jake and Sam started working together in about 1825. Jacob died in 1849, and Sam soldiered on for a few more years. I believe Watt bought the shop in 1860. Over the years that the Hawken shop was in business, their rifles evolved in form. It is generally acknowledged that the earlier, J&S rifles were more slender and graceful, although to my eye, the post-1850 Hawkens are still beautiful guns. Most of the Hawken replicas you see are based on the later S. Hawken replicas. It would be refreshing to see the earlier styled rifles better represented.

...stop typing, Bob...

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

There is a Western Arms Santa Fe Hawken on GunBroker in .54 right now. Six hundred bucks. Very nice looking rifle. Thanks for the good information.

 

[Dale Lilly]

There is a Western Arms Santa Fe Hawken on GunBroker in .54 right now. Six hundred bucks. Very nice looking rifle. Thanks for the good information.

Hi Tim. I have an Allen Santa Fe Hawkin in near perfect condition. Nice Gun. I also had one that was made for The Log Cabin Shop. It was also made by Uberti, and they were identical except for the stampings. I sold it to a member here. He sent me a photo of it displayed at his home. I hated to let it go but did not need two. Have a good weekend. Dale

 

[bigted]

Thank you Notchy. Lots info there. I think the 50 is a grand trade off between my personal favorite ... the 54 cal ... and the smaller 45 cal. It would shoot flatter than the 54 and more delivered knockdown weight than the 45.

Still like a good 15/16ths barrel in 54 cal. Elk and bear as well as moose should be fairly impressed with it and any deer should just lay over and succumb as soon as they figure its a 54 comin at em.

Do we know what Bridger's gun was in the early days? A full stock flinter of some sort I'd bet.

 

[lou puleff]

Ron Paull up in Alaska is building me a trade rifle as we speak it's a Leman style same as the GRRW indian trade rifles but I went with a 32" 58 cal for hunting I had an original Grrw but it was a 54 percussion this rifle will be a flintlock my first flinter. Hoping it will be in my hands shortly !

 

[Loja man]

Great thread!!

 

[Songwriter]

There is a Western Arms Santa Fe Hawken on GunBroker in .54 right now. Six hundred bucks. Very nice looking rifle. Thanks for the good information.

That’s an odd one. I’ve never seen a patch box on a Uberti Western/Allen Santa Fe before. And it looks like someone changed the butt profile.

 

[Hermit Tim]

That’s an odd one. I’ve never seen a patch box on a Uberti Western/Allen Santa Fe before. And it looks like someone changed the butt profile.View attachment 262172

Yep the patch box looks like the one on my CVA.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I'm concerned that I may have accidentally misled some folks with my last post.

John Baird, Ed Webber, and Leonard Allen did try to get Uberti to start producing a copy of the "ETC" Hawken, but this was different from and in addition to the Uberti Santa Fe Hawken. The ETC is an early, 1830's J&S Hawken rifle, while the Santa Fe Hawken is more in the style of and 1850's era S. Hawken. This ad, originally in the October 1978 issue of The Buckskin Report and reproduced on the GRRW Collectors website, illustrates that pretty clearly:



Note the price of $275.00 for the Santa Fe Hawken, but they advise potential customers to "Write for prices..." for the J&S Hawken. A second, similar-appearing ad in the same magazine six months later showed a pricetag of $295.00 for the Santa Fe Hawken and $1000.00 for the J&S-style Hawken rifle. The substantial price difference was attributed to "...the difficulty of duplicating an original rifle of this [early] style..."

So, the old Santa Fe Hawkens were fine rifles, but they were not based on the Montana Historical Society's original 1830's-style J&S Hawken. For a "mountain man/rendezvous era" impression, that J&S rifle would have been just what the doctor ordered. As stated before, it would be pretty cool if Mr. Kibler would consider a J&S-styled rifle for his much-anticipated Hawken kit. That would fill a neglected niche in the marketplace, and would make a lot of buckskinners, shooters, and probably some collectors mighty happy.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Gun Tramp]

...stop typing, Bob...

Please don't. Your well researched and well cited posts are always a great read. Thanks.

 

[Muley Gil]

Does the J Henry style rifle in post #1 have a single set trigger? I know I'm in the minority, but I prefer a standard un-set trigger. I guess I have spent too much time shooting MLs from the War of Northern Aggression era.

 

[tenngun]

Most popular with whom? I must ask since the trappers, by and large, even those from Eastern Woodland tribes like the Delaware etc were rifle armed. Largely because on the prairie, unless running buffalo, is basically useless. And it was known by the 1740s in the East that the rifle was more economical. Well at least the traders wanted the sale of rifles to the tribes outlawed by the 1750s as did the military. I would also point out that “accurately” is a relative thing when talking a smoothbore ESPECIALLY back in the day when the various trade guns East or West were made as cheaply as possible. The cheapest thing the could get the natives to buy.

I would have to disagree here. Smoothbores remained popular with westren tribes even after rifles were made available.
Many MM in the west were French Canadians and not a small percentage were Mexican. They too tended toward smoothbores.
We think of the Rockies and Americans but while we were pushing west HBC was pushing east from Fort Vancouver.
When we busted through south pass we didn’t run in to unknown country as English was trapping the same area and doing so with smoothies.
North of our line is the Canadian plains. It’s hard to tell Saskatchewan from Dakota Montana. Here the Metis were building an economy based on pemmican trade. And hunting with smoothbores. In 1847 Levine, an HBC officer told new Englishmen coming to Canadian Frontier to get a smooth bore, since he said it shot true as a rifle to sixty yards and that was the range most hunting took place in
Canada had little interest in rifles until the adoption of breechloader in the 1870s
While a rifle could get good hits At two hundred yards, the ballistics of ball just don’t serve well past a hundred. I dare say most game killed by a plains rifle was killed within smoothbore range

 

[reddogge]

Does the J Henry style rifle in post #1 have a single set trigger? I know I'm in the minority, but I prefer a standard un-set trigger. I guess I have spent too much time shooting MLs from the War of Northern Aggression era.

That had a simple single trigger, no set.