RIFLE TWISTS

[Halftail]

Actually did that a long time ago

Just a question,
If you put Roundball on your ignore list how come you are still reading Roundballs Posts?

 

[Slake]

I'm amazed at this thread really. I've owned 48's and 66'es and have not noticed a huge difference between them. My son has taken medals with his 50 cal 48 twist. I shoot one and I can easily do better than a softball size group at fifty yards. I find it to be a pleasing accurate rifle to shoot. Now I must admit I'm intrigued about getting another barrel to try to see the difference

 

[Blivetmaker]

I built a Renegade (1:48) back in the late eighties. Has the pre-fire wood too :grin: It loves home-cast maxiballs from the original but now discontinued mold. RB's were a problem until I tried a really slick liquid lube and very tight patch combo. The groups stay nice and small at 50m
up to 80-90gr behind a .490 ball.
My own experience is that 1:48 less than ideal for RB's but if you're willing to put in a bit of extra work you can keep 'em in the 9-ring at 50m all day long.
I got reasonable results using DR-100 paste lube from Heinrich Hensel GmbH. The only problem is that if
I didn't swab after around 5 shots accuracy went out the window, with shots just randomly wandering a few inches away from the group. A similar lube on a tight patch might be the ticket for a hunter who won't be firing fifty shots and doesn't want to mess with a rather messy water-based liquid.
As always, YMMV. The accelleration a projectile undergoes is tremendous and what I've come up with for my particular rifle is an attempt to prevent stipping due to a rather huge amount of torque. Deeper rifling/tight and well lubed patch seems to help.

Following is not referring to, or singling out anyone in particular:
A forum is a fantastic medium, as it provides information exchange that would otherwise be nearly impossible. It has, like anything else, it's limits. We might want to keep in mind that when we go into "Badmouth-Mode", the only limits being demonstrated are our own..

 

[Slamfire]

Y'all have really confused me, I don't know whether to ignore threads with "twist" or threads with "accuracy". :nono:

 

[faw3]

You got that right!!!!! :yakyak: about nothing me thinks.Last time we went thru this I thought John H put this to rest I know he did along with some others here. Fred :thumbsup:

 

[410-er]

I would like to see some real pics of 50 yd targets of each.No cheating boys !

 

[Halftail]

Y'all have really confused me, I don't know whether to ignore threads with "twist" or threads with "accuracy". :nono:

It's threads like these that keep me interested in Talk forums.If it weren't for them I'd probably go get a life.... :haha:

 

[Bartek]

I have Armi Sport's "Kentucky-Hunter" : barrel cal..44, 38" long, flintlock, but with twist 1/34, so specially for conicals as You all know, gentlmen.

I tried last week how will work patched round balls with this barrel, next maxi-balls, and last Minies. I used every time 60 grains of black powder. 50 meters (yards)range, offhand. Here they are :

I tried later round balls with less powder, but accuracy was still fatal.
best regards :hatsoff:

 

[John Taylor]

I guess I will jump in here and get my feet dirty. I have owned a T/C with a 1 in 48, 50 cal. that shot better than I can hold. Many years ago I had 6 in one hole at 50 yards with round ball. I never worked up a load for maxis, the few I tried didn't do to well. I'm probably one of very few on this board that owns and opperates a rifling machine and I get asked this question about twist almost every day. I have done a little resurch on the early cartridge barrels so I can match the old barrels on Winchesters. Most people don't know that the 50 express started with a 1 in 60 using a 350 grain bullet, then went to 1 in 56 and then 1 in 48. The 50-450-100 started at 1 in 48 and then went to 1 in 36. Winchester must have had some problems with the slower twist on the conicals. As for RB, I have found that the twist should reflect what you want to get out of your rifle. If you like lighter loads for target shooting then stay with a faster twist. If you want all the volocity you can get then go with a slower twist. I have seen .62 caliber barrels with a twist of 1 in 150. On a .50 cal RB barrel I would recommend a 1 in 66 for all around use. This is not saying that I think the 1 in 48 is wrong but I have found that heavy charges ( 100 + ) in the 50 don't do as well. Also conical need to have a faster spin to keep them going strait at longer ranges. My old 50-70 with a 1 in 36 twist did fine at 100 yards but the bullets were tumbling at 200.
about 150 years ago a fellow named Whitworth did some testing on a hex bore 45 cal. He made lots of barrels with different twist from very fast to almost strait. Using the same conical bullet and the same powder charge in all barrels he came up with a 1 in 20 twist. His rifles became the sniper rifle of the day for long range shooting. If he would have gone to a lighter bullet or a little more powder a slower twist would have worked.
I have seen people get rid of good rifles blaming the rate of twist without taking time to work up a good load. I got a very nice 52 caliber rifle sold to me as a tight bored 54 caliber. Some people will do good with almost any twist and other won't do any good with the best rifle out there. It's not always the rate of twist being the problem.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've owned five T/C 1:48" muzzleloaders: a .45 Hawken flint, a .36 Seneca cap, two Renegade cap .54's, and a .50 New Englander. Every one of them would post 2" groups at 50 yards from a rest consistantly, frequently much smaller. IF I wipe between shots. The Renegades I have always considered among my most accurate rifles, centefires included. The iron sights are more limiting than the twist IMHO (I like their partridge style and have put thousands of rounds through Contenders with that same sight, also).

I don't load heavy and I work hard at finding accurate loads for any given muzzleloader. It took me YEARS to get the New Englander to shoot well. When I first started I could do as well with a .690 patched ball in the 12 ga smooth barrel at 25 yards as I could with the .50 rifled barrel, no exaggeration.

 

[faw3]

Very good. it took awhile to work out my load for a H+A uh fast twist (about 1x25) 50, and boy those 500, 550 gr bullets will reach on out with lotsof punch power, but its a near usless barrel I had made on a whim, 1 1/8 to heavy to carry around, you could set up a stand and if your good with really good sights drop that deer ect at 3 or 400 yds. But its still a toy. If you got a 45 and play with it you can hit the bull at 100 everytime, Ive done it goofing around with my 451 1x21 twist VOL, just didnt use much powder at all. Fred :hatsoff:

 

Fred, one of my Hawkens has a Green Mountain barrel with a 1x70 twist in rate with a rifling depth of .012 and another barrel made by Bob Hoyt with a twist of 1x72 also of .012 depth and they both shoot great!

 

[faw3]

flyboy we are happy to see your back I really like that Hawk with the silver rings ,fan tas tic wood guy. On the other side of twist, in a old Lyman shooting manual it said you could shoot a con out of the 1 x 66 Douglas because it was long nose short body and shot very well.. go figure. :hmm: :hmm: Fred :hatsoff:

 

[davy]

Well I guess you better go tell the Hawken Brothers about their screw up ... cuz according to what I understand their barrels were commonly 1:48 twist for roundball.

I think you are forgetting what John H. has said about depth of rifling having an impact on accuracy in a 1:48 as well!

I am certainly no expert on it ... but a deeper rifling such as 10 or 12 thousands on a 1:48 should do the trick just fine according to some knowledgable folks ... and I am thinking that is what the Hawkens were quite often cut to.

Davy

 

Glad to be back Fred. I was out of town the last three days. As far as the rate of twists in my barrels go, it was the makers decision on the rates of twist. Green Mountain for example uses only that rate of twist for their 50's. As far as the other barrel goes I can only assume that Bob Hoyt has found something he likes about the 1x72 rate of twist.

I always thought that the 1x66 was the standard ROT for the patched round ball. Apparently there must be something to these even slower rates of twist that's unbeknownst to me. Maybe one of our forum members could key me in. I'd be curious to hear an explanation.

Going back to the 1x48 rate of twist though. According to what I was able to find, that was the standard ROT that the original Hawken barrels were rifled for. I don't know what the depth of the rifling was or if the grooves were round or squared on the bottom.

 

[davy]

I would like to see some real pics of 50 yd targets of each.No cheating boys !

410 your wish is out command ... John H. has sent these to me to post for your perusal ... wish to hell I could shoot htis good! Course I am not John Hinnant neether! :hmm: :hatsoff: BTW I have seen him shoot, and he can do it too!

Davy

 

[davy]

Part duex John's targets ...

 

[davy]

BTW according to John H. ... Bill Large states that the Hawken Brothers barrels were in fact on average 1:48 twist, generally 12-14 thous deep, square cut rifling, 7 groove, equal width lands and grooves. :hmm:

Davy

 

Awesome groups! :hatsoff: I'm really impressed! Just out of curiosity, could you provide the specs of the barrel used for this?

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

H.E. Resley Barrel.

1" ACTF Octagon x 36" lONG 50 Caliber


John L. Hinnant