Question about self priming and unreliable ignition.

[Robert Losekamp]

Hello all,

I read somewhere this morning that there is a chance that if your rifle self primes, that there may not be powder right behind the flash hole and this can cause unreliable ignition or a flash in the pan. Can't for the life of me find that thread again unfortunately.

I'm using a Traditions Kentucky, loading with 3f and once in a while I'll forget to leave the frizzen open while loading and notice some powder in the pan. I'm wondering if this is causing problems when it's time to pull the trigger. My liner is the factory one, I do have one of the RMC hex head liners on order that is supposed to be delivered today maybe that will clear up my issues.

It's possible that I'm overthinking it, and while I'm new to ML I'm probably not dialed in with the appropriate amount of priming either so it could also be that. I suppose I'm just looking for some peace of mind after having a flash with a deer in my sights earlier this week.

 

[Phil Coffins]

If you got a flash then priming isn’t the problem, the hole and or the main charge didn’t receive the flash. That pan flash is very powerful so I’d be looking at what could stop it, oil is my go to answer in these cases.

 

[Robert Losekamp]

If you got a flash then priming isn’t the problem, the hole and or the main charge didn’t receive the flash. That pan flash is very powerful so I’d be looking at what could stop it, oil is my go to answer in these cases.

Thanks Phil. My concern is more with the powder from the main charge being forced out and not settling close to the inside wall of the flash hole, I don't know what I could do to remedy that besides buying some 2f so it doesn't self prime at all. It possible I put too much in the pan or something, hard telling.

I don't think oil is a problem as I don't use it in the barrel or anywhere powder will come in contact with it for this reason. I don't want any gunk collecting.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you have powder in the pan and a good spark you should be getting ignition. I also suspect oil is gunking your charge in the breech area.

 

[fishmusic]

I think this is the post you were looking for: Vent size and powder

 

[Robert Losekamp]

I think this is the post you were looking for: Vent size and powder

Thank you! Don't know how I missed that

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks Phil. My concern is more with the powder from the main charge being forced out and not settling close to the inside wall of the flash hole, I don't know what I could do to remedy that besides buying some 2f so it doesn't self prime at all. It possible I put too much in the pan or something, hard telling.

I don't think oil is a problem as I don't use it in the barrel or anywhere powder will come in contact with it for this reason. I don't want any gunk collecting.

Might try plugging the vent with a soft wire pick before loading so the main charge will not dribble out the vent and be compressed to it.

 

[tenngun]

Your touch hole may be a tad small. 1/16” is often the hole size, sometimes smaller.
I find these will have a higher flash in the pans or hang fire
I like a 3/32

 

[nit wit]

After loading,prick your charge, do it every time.
Nit Wit

 

[Robert Losekamp]

Might try plugging the vent with a soft wire pick before loading so the main charge will not dribble out the vent and be compressed to it.

I'll be doing that loading for the hunt for sure

 

[Robert Losekamp]

Your touch hole may be a tad small. 1/16” is often the hole size, sometimes smaller.
I find these will have a higher flash in the pans or hang fire
I like a 3/32

I went ahead and changed it out to one of the RMC liners after reading up on it a bit. We'll see if that resolves it. If not, I'll drill it out some.

 

[Brokennock]

"Self priming" would have referred to a gun that can put enough powder in the pan through the flash hole to truly prime the pan, it wasn't unheard of in the period. In fact there os a period description of a hunter loading his gun and pulling a quill from his touch hole, it fills the pan...

For one thing, I doubt it would cause ignition issues, but I could see a hole that large causing diminished velocity. For another, a few kernels of 3f slipping into the pan through the hole isn't really "self priming" and also isn't indicative of a problem.

Your o.p. implies that maybe you are having ignition trouble, can you describe the trouble in more detail?

 

[Robert Losekamp]

"Self priming" would have referred to a gun that can put enough powder in the pan through the flash hole to truly prime the pan, it wasn't unheard of in the period. In fact there os a period description of a hunter loading his gun and pulling a quill from his touch hole, it fills the pan...

For one thing, I doubt it would cause ignition issues, but I could see a hole that large causing diminished velocity. For another, a few kernels of 3f slipping into the pan through the hole isn't really "self priming" and also isn't indicative of a problem.

Your o.p. implies that maybe you are having ignition trouble, can you describe the trouble in more detail?

I think I might have used incorrect terminology, still pretty new to this. I don't know if it is enough to fully prime the pan, but it's not just a few kernels either.

My malfunction was simply a flash in the pan with a deer in my sights, and after some reading I thought perhaps that the powder that came out from the patent breech while seating the ball was leaving a void large enough that the flash was unable to get to the main charge. I hope that makes sense.

 

[flatcreek]

Make perfect sense to me, I started the other thread. My rifle was firing but it was just inconstant, sometime bang, then clack bang, then maybe bang again and then clack fizz bang. Maybe not that exaggerated but that's the best I could explain it. Made it hard to get a good group. My recommendation is coarser powder or smaller touch hole. I want the powder stack up trying to get out. So the largest touch hole you can use without more than 1 or 2 grains going into the pan. The inside of you flash hole liner is coned, I also countersink the out side some to make the flash channel short about .035 long and the countersink on the outside directs the flash. Hope this helps Phil

 

[duca]

The problem is the “patent breech”! Hate those things.

 

[Robert Losekamp]

Make perfect sense to me, I started to other thread. My rifle was firing but it was just inconstant, sometime bang, then clack bang, then maybe bang again and then clack fizz bang. Maybe not that exaggerated but that's the best I could explain it. Made it hard to get a good group. My recommendation is coarser powder or smaller touch hole. I want the powder stack up trying to get out. So the largest touch hole you can use without more than 1 or 2 grains going into the pan. The inside of you flash hole liner is coned, I also countersink the out side some to make the flash channel short about .035 long and the countersink on the outside directs the flash. Hope this helps Phil

I'm going to track down some 2f if this new liner doesn't improve it. This one uses an Allen key to tighten up so I'm hoping it works as a cone. We'll see! In the woods now.

 

[Robert Losekamp]

The problem is the “patent breech”! Hate those things.

Can't wait to get a better rifle without one!

 

[Brokennock]

I think I might have used incorrect terminology, still pretty new to this. I don't know if it is enough to fully prime the pan, but it's not just a few kernels either.

My malfunction was simply a flash in the pan with a deer in my sights, and after some reading I thought perhaps that the powder that came out from the patent breech while seating the ball was leaving a void large enough that the flash was unable to get to the main charge. I hope that makes sense.

This all makes sense.

I don't know if it is enough to fully prime the pan, but it's not just a few kernels either.

Can you provide a picture?

Even if you can't, I have a thought or two,,, but I'm not one of these self declared experts, but I am trying to respond logically to what you actually wrote.
As of now I am thinking that this powder is not only not the problem, in my mind it may be a good thing. I was unaware of your patent breach,,, they suck. Powder coming from the vent into the pan means powder is getting into the patent breach, this is a good thing and is often a problem with that breach. But could also be a case of this being the only powder to get into the patent breach.
I leave my gun charged between hints with the vent plugged. When I pull the plug I close the hammer and tilt the gun lock down and have the side plate a tap, I want to see a few kernels of powder in the pan. This tells me the powder is at the vent and probably still dry.

My malfunction was simply a flash in the pan with a deer in my sights,

"Malfunction", singular.
Is this the only, though highly unfortunate, time this has happened?
Does it happen occasionally at the range or often?

Some have suggested switching to 2f. It might work, you'll probably need 5 to 10 grains more than your 3f load for similar/equal performance. But, you may also have more trouble getting it into the patent breach, and you may get more fouling.

My advice,,, which is worth less than you are paying for it,,,, but may still cost you money ?
Forget the vent/liner.
Buy, beg, borrow, or,,,,,,,,, trade for, a gun without that patent breach.

 

[French Colonial]

"if your rifle self primes, that there may not be powder right behind the flash hole and this can cause unreliable ignition or a flash in the pan"

This makes no sense to me, there was enough powder to fill the pan but not enough to fill the chambered breech? Or did the powder dumped down the barrel fill the breech and then there was an air gap and the breech powder went in to the vent but what happened to the rest of the powder?

Personally I think there is another culprit and think the posters above have it right, it is not the powder granulation it is either, oil, improper wiping between shots, or the chambered breech being partially fouled.

My 2 cents.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Now before you come at me with pitch forks and torches.....I have tried a 50/50 of Pdex and Black ground down into priming only. seems to deliver a very nice hot pan flash......YMMV