Potzdam 1740 Carbine?

[Oldham]

Link http://s358.photobucket.com/user/threesteps13/media/IMG_0343_zpso9eprxj5.jpg.html http://s358.photobucket.com/user/threesteps13/media/IMG_0344_zps8nzrbg9e.jpg.html
This is a smaller version of a German 1740 musket I have. It is not a cut down full sized gun. The barrel is about 20 inches and about 60 caliber. The triggerguard is not original. Anybody have any information on this model. I have seen a picture on the web of an identical one but there was no info.

 

[Artificer]

Please understand I am not a serious student of Prussian Muskets, let alone Carbines. (My interest is 18th century British and British American military arms.)

I am intrigued why you think the trigger guard is a replacement? Are there signs in the stock like gaps in the fit of the inletting to the trigger guard that suggest this? Or did you mention that because it is different in style from musket trigger guards?

Though Frederick the Great employed many innovations in military weapons design earlier than in other European countries, a 20 inch barrel made an extremely short barreled Carbine and unusual for a military weapon, though some 20 inch Cavalry Carbines were used by a VERY small number of British Cavalry.

My GUESS is that this may have been a Carbine made especially for the Prussian Hussars, by how the Hussars were used and the fact the barrel is too short for Prussian Cavalry and Dragoon Units. It may have been only for a single unit of Hussars, as some extremely short British Calvary Carbines were made and used.

You may be interested in the following link:
http://mapswar2.x10host.com/Prussian_army_of_Frederick_the_Great.htm#_Weapons_of_Infantry

Gus

 

[Oldham]

Hi,
The triggerguard was missing when I bought the gun and I made one from sheet brass that fit the inletting of the wood. Thanks for the link.

 

[Artificer]

Nice Job on making the replacement trigger guard! I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it would be to find an original or reproduction replacement.

I am SURE there are others beside me who would also very much enjoy pictures of your original M1740 Potsdam Musket, if you would be so inclined to post pictures of it.

BTW, WELCOME to the Forum and hope to see more of your posts.

Gus

 

[Wes/Tex]

http://www.britishbattles.com/frederick/kesselsdorf/dragoon-9-holstein-gottorp-no-9-l.jpg


I'm sorry but I'm going to have to vote that it's cut down. Prussian cavalry of Frederick's era was limited to cuirassier, dragoon and hussar regiments. The first two carried muskets only a couple inches shorter than the infantry musket and the hussars, then a new expereiment, were armed with sabers and pistols. You can see from the illustration that the cavaley musket was still fairly long, like the dragoon musket used by the French 50 years later...ony 4 inches shorter than the infantry musket.

Below is a Prussian cuirassier of the same period and note the long carbine lashed to the tent poles they all had to schlep around with them.

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/images/a/ac/Prinz_von_Preußen_Cuirassiers_Knötel.jpg

 

[Artificer]

I won't disagree it may be a cut down carbine, but please look at the illustration of the "Husar vom Husaren-Regiment von Ruesch" 1744, in the link below. That looks to me like a very short barreled carbine of around 20" barrel length, if the drawing was done with as much historic accuracy as the other drawings, including ones that are in the link you provided.
http://mapswar2.x10host.com/Prussian_army_of_Frederick_the_Great.htm#_Weapons_of_Infantry

Dr. De Witt Bailey mentions some British Cavalry Carbines were as short as 20 inches after the Seven Years War and it is possible they got that idea from other Continental forces in that war.

Gus

 

[Oldham]

I have three photo bucket links at the beginning of my original post. Do those work? If not I will try another way of posting a picture. New to this kind of posting and don't know how to make the pic appear.

 

[Oldham]

I dug the Potzdam out of the safe and measured the bore with calipers. Comes out to .66 or .675, a little worn and out of round of course. The barrel length is 20 1/2". The diameter of the barrel at the breech is 1 1/16". The lock is marked Potzdam Magaz with DSE inspector on bevel on bottom of plate forward of the cock. Lock plate length is 5 3/4". Trigger guard length (from original inlet) is 10 1/4". The buttplate is 4" tall. From the trigger to the buttplate is 12 1/2". I believe all of these dimensions are much smaller that the full size musket. The front sight is the brass blade that is brazed directly to the barrel.

 

[Oldham]

[/URL][/img]
Carbine over all view

 

[Oldham]

 

[robinghewitt]

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Three cross pins. I love it. Thanks for sharing :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Oldham]

I used to have what was left of an old fowler that had three lock bolts in the hand forged lock.They had number stamps 1,2,3 on the visible part of the bolt head. The only stamps on the gun except on the much later percussion hammer that has what looks like Belknap on the inside of the Bedford style hammer.

 

[Oldham]

[/URL][/img]
Potzdam carbine muzzle

 

[Oldham]

Wood has a chip missing. The nose cap is thin brass sheet (replacement) and the ramrod has a brass trumpet shaped end. Looks like the iron has a turned down end and the brass piece was slipped over it and peened. The iron is visible on the very end. The other end is threaded for a worm.

 

[Artificer]

Thanks for posting the picture on this forum, I can now see/differentiate the brass front band I was looking for from the illustration of the "Husar vom Husaren-Regiment von Ruesch" 1744. I could not see it before on the other linked pictures. If the illustration is true to historic accuracy, it looks like your Carbine MAY be the one illustrated in that drawing. At least it gives you another avenue to research.

Oh, just found a single link to the Illustration I am referring to, so one does not have to scroll through the earlier link.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knötel_II,_31.jpg

Gus

 

[Oldham]

Thanks for the link, I replaced the the nose cap with what I thought the original looked like. It was obvious that it was thin metal. It could have gone over the barrel also but I just figured it didn't since the barrel is pinned. I've had this gun since 1989 so will get it figured out one of these days.

 

[Artificer]

Germanic and Swiss guns in the 17th and early 18th century were known for sometimes having a front band and sometimes with a nose band/cap as well. Technically if I am seeing your picture correctly; yours is a front band as it does not cover the front end of the stock (as a noseband does) and it doesn't go around the front of the stock (as a nose cap does). This sort of front band was intended to strengthen the stock and thus was often used with a barrel that was otherwise pinned to the stock.

Gus

 

[Wes/Tex]

Went back and looked through 3 sources and got two 'nos' and one 'yes', but looks like matching illustration trumps the learned count! :wink: How often they were used may be another arguable point...seems cavalry lads were more prone to go to bright steel and the common thinking of the day insisted cavalry with carbines got bested every time by cavalry moving forward with sabers. Actual combat records say more like 50/50. French did it twice but both times against Russian cavalry moving forward at basically a walk due to snow.

Looks like your carbine may be the real deal and I congratulate you on the find. Will also admit when I'm wrong. You may have quite a little treasure there! :thumbsup:

 

[Artificer]

Wes/Tex,

Like you, the first thing I thought when the OP mentioned the barrel length was it probably is a cut down carbine. Cavalry Carbine barrels of around 20 inch were not completely unknown around the mid 18th century, but they were at least very uncommon, if not downright rare and especially for Prussia - or so I thought until I saw and was surprised to see that illustration.

The following are two quotes from the first link I posted:

"Hussars roles were: securing the flanks of infantry and heavy cavalry, scouting, raiding and harassing the enemy."

A short carbine may/would have been better for that than a pistol. Then came the following quote:

"The hussar was armed with a carbine. Before the Seven Years War the 10 best men in each squadron were issued with better horses and rifled carbines. They also received training in target shooting and reconnaissance work. The curved sabre had 41' long blade."

Before I found this link, I had checked Weapons of the American Revolution by Warren Moore and found a 36" barreled rifle carbine mentioned used by the Hessian Cavalry here in the AWI. I had never heard of that, but I am not the student of Cavalry that others are.

To be honest, finding that illustration was not much more than dumb luck on my part. I certainly was not expecting to find an illustration of that short of a Prussian barreled carbine in that period.

I VERY much agree the OP may have quite the unusual and rare treasure.

Gus

 

[Oldham]

I really believe I put the proper band on this gun. I have seen the dragoon pistols of the same time period with just the band around the wood and even found mention of how that was sometimes retrofitted to strengthen the wood on the end.I have on order one of the reproductions of the dragoon pistol and am hoping the trigger guard is the same length as my carbine, giving me a source maybe for a better trigger guard. The caliber of the pistol was the same as the carbine (I think?) so makes me wonder if they had a carbine and a brace of pistols.