Pine tar or pine pitch?

[Sam squanch]

Hello. I seem to think I read somewhere (maybe on this forum) that breech plugs were sealed with pine tar or pine pitch. Would this be an option? Thanks

 

[Kansas Kid]

I sure think so. Have you ever tried to wash it away

 

[Flintandsteel]

I’ve built well over 100 guns. To date, all I’ve ever used is occasionally some choke tube lube. Don’t really think it’s necessary. If you feel you need to, use something to keep the threads from galling.

 

[Sam squanch]

The idea was the pine tar would seal the threads so no black powder residue would be blown back in the breech plug threads.

 

[tallpine]

I have also read of the pine tar. If you have seen any original breech plugs they had very coarse threads. They are also shorter than modern breech plugs. I think that the purpose of the tar was to keep water out of the threads when cleaning the rifle. If you have ever had an occasion to use pine tar for anything than you know it probably worked very well.

 

[Phil Coffins]

The fit of the plug done correctly will not allow water to get to the threads.

 

[Flintandsteel]

You may use whatever you want. I just saying, it’s not necessary. Although black powder is pretty sneaky, it’s not going to sneak it’s way past 7 or 8 properly machined threads.
To me, it’s more important to assure that it will come apart when needed.

 

[Kansas Kid]

Wasn’t it in the Foxfire 5 book? I’ve seen it used on antique gas engines as well, good stuff. HC and PC. There’s always a place for moisture to enter the threads besides the face of the plug.

 

[tallpine]

The fit of the plug done correctly will not allow water to get to the threads

The mechanical seal on a breech plug is more than adequate to handle the pressures generated by black powder but for a moisture tight seal not so much. That is why tapered pipe plugs are used for that type of application. There is no doubt that a properly fitted breech plug is absolutely mandatory but I feel like a good thread sealer is just added insurance. I have never used Pine tar on a beech plug, I would, I'm sure it would work well. I use blue Loctite.
I once unbreeched an original rifle that had a plug that had hand cut threads that were about 6 threads per inch, makes sense that some type of sealer would have been used.

 

[1950DAVE]

I concur with Tallpine on this . I'm no authority on what might have been used in the olden days and have read the Foxfire 5 more than once. However I don't recal mention of the pine tar/ pitch/ rosin being used, but it seems to me that it would have served the twofold purpose of threadlocker and sealer in the days when no such products were available and thread cutting was often done with less than perfect tools or measuring instruments.
Dave

 

[oldwood]

Tallpine....can truthfully say I've never heard of using a tapered pipe plug in a breech plug application on a muzzleloader barrel. And yes , Blue Locktite seales m/l breach threads nicely. No oils , water or other goo will hide in threads sealed w/it . Obvious fix for liquids in breach threads is after cleaning and rust proofing , put muzzle down and after a while , just wipe the bore out when the goo runs foreward toward the muzzle...oldwood

 

[Scota@4570]

I wouldn't.

A goopie anti seize compound would be a better bet. Alox bullet lube a handy choice. I have a tube of moly gas valve grease for an antique stove. It is super tenacious. IT prevent galling. It also cost me $50 so I want to use it for something.

200 years ago they had little to work with. Your lock lube and barrel preservative was a greasy part of an animal you had for dinner. Just because they did something back then it doesn't make is a good idea today.

 

[appalichian hunter]

But is this not a traditional muzzle loading site, Stuff like this is interesting, anyone ever pull the breech of a old weapon of this sort and chemical test the residue, I find the chance of this could be especially with the weapons makers of the Appalachian region. Wonder if you ask someone like the House Bros, or Wallace Gunsler their thoughts what it would be, not much lock tight around in them days.

 

[oldwood]

According to an 18th century testimony, pine pitch was rendered from pine knots , gathered in the forest floor from rotted pine logs. and commonly used in the making of frontier shoes. Would be interesting to find how many other pine pitch uses there were. I can see how pine pitch would seal a poorly threaded breech plug. .......oldwood

 

[oldwood]

After thinking about pine pitch or today , commonly called pine rosin , I remember my dad had some pieces of this solid orange/brown material , one of which was in his violin case used to "rosin up " the violin bow strings , so the instrument would make sound when the bow was drawn across the strings. Also , He used the melted rosin to tighten up the wood joints of a Windsor chair. Why wouldn't melted rosin be used to fix cracks in a muzzleloader gun stock?? A hot iron would melt the rosin , and it would be allowed to drip into the open fisher and warmed wood. After the pitch cooled and hardened , it could be scraped off flush and oiled. Repair done...........Don't remember how else pitch/rosin was used ..........oldwood

 

[Notchy Bob]

I have always understood that pitch and tar were about the same, rendered from fat pine, or "lighterd knots," as we call them here in the south. This "fat wood" is the heartwood of dead pine trees. Pitch and tar are both solid black in color, sticky and messy, with a pretty low melting point, although it will eventually harden with exposure. Pine tar is still widely used in equine veterinary wound treatment. If you search for pine tar on the web, you'll probably find it for sale in a can with a picture of a horse on it. Pine tar was also used as a lubricant on wagon axles. The friction of the rolling wheel would heat it enough to virtually liquify it, but it would hold up better than lard or tallow for this application.

Rosin is the purified and hardened sap, usually collected from live pine trees. It is not the same as pitch or tar. It is a pale amber color in its purified form, and in fact Amber (the precious stone) is fossilized rosin. Rosin was, and still is, applied to the horsehair of a fiddle bow to create more friction on the fiddle strings, as oldwood described. Rosin was also the earliest form of "hot melt" cement, often used on early rifleman's knives and even table cutlery to hold the knife tang in the hollow handle. When ground to a powder, it can be applied to almost any surface to increase its gripping power. Brownell's used to sell powdered rosin for this purpose... Maybe they still do.

I had not heard of putting pine tar on a breech plug, but I am not surprised. It would create a flexible, watertight and even gas-tight seal. Rosin is brittle, and I don't believe it would serve as well for this purpose as a dab of tar. I think Tallpine's observations are spot on. I have unbreeched several old guns, and recall they were generally not breeched nearly as tightly as now. Threads were often hand-filed and hand fitted, and rather coarse, although I have seen "thread plates" listed with gun smithing supplies sent to the posts on the frontier. I don't know if these were for cutting threads, like dies, or for checking threads, though.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[old ugly]

i would say that sap is the raw material produced by the tree, pitch is the next semi hardened state produced from the sap, resin is the hardened/crystalline state of the pitch and tar would be the processed product made from the pitch. my take on it.
pitch if not processed may go hard and crystallise. not a good sealer.
if i were to seal anything with those items, then tar is the ticket.

 

[oldwood]

Notchy.......All I have uncovered from pre 1800 texts , says , once an apprentice gun builder reached the end of his term , he had to know how to make his own tools which included a thread plate for anything requiring threads. What seems to be taken for granted , is what about a set of a couple threading taps to cut internal matching threads. Didn't have to have many taps , but a few to cut lock internal screws , lock bolt and , breech threads for a barrel plug. ........So much info from times past was taken for granted by the original folks that lived it , the info was so common and not thought important enough to record for us......oldwood

 

[tenngun]

I can’t remember the last plug I pulled on a rifle after the plug was fit. On the final fit I have done Teflon tape. As that was in short supply in the old days I can see pine tar being used. Or even bees wax. I have read but in no way confirm it or argue it that finger tight was common on old breach plugs versus my torqued on ones.
I sold a half built gun to a friend who managed to over torque the plug and striped it