Period Correct??

[Black Hand]

Not being a textile expert, the best timeframe that I can infer from evidence is the mid to latter part of the 19th century. This would be for cotton canvas being commonly and easily available.

Prior to the invention of the Cotton gin (Eli Whitney, patented 1794), making cotton thread (and ultimately cotton cloth) was labor-intensive and expensive. That doesn't mean cotton fabric didn't exist, it does however mean that it was a luxury/expensive product. Linen and hemp fabric was cheaper, easier to make and far tougher that cotton could ever been. Not to mention, linen and hemp were common fabrics of the 18th century.

Linen and hemp were most appropriate and easily available
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvas
While this deals primarily with oil painting, it is some indication of the availability of COTTON canvas:
Early canvas was made of linen, a sturdy brownish fabric of considerable strength. Linen is particularly suitable for the use of oil paint. In the early 20th century, cotton canvas, often referred to as "cotton duck," came into use.
http://www.ehow.com/facts_6972551_cotton-fabric-history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cotton

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailclothhttp://www.nyfashioncenterfabrics.com/cotton-fabric-info.html
At first cotton was used as a matter of necessity in the United States as it was indigenous and the supply of flax was periodically interrupted by wars such as the War of 1812, during which demand for sailcloth for military use was high. As sail size grew linen was too heavy to be practical so cotton became more popular. Cotton did not substantially replace linen worldwide until the end of the age of sail; however, in some cases the strength of linen was preferred for some types of sails. It was not until the late 20th century that natural fibers were replaced by synthetics in mainstream use.

 

[Claude Mathis]

However sold in st louis it could make it to the rockies

Since st lo had stores just what was it that was sold in town that could not be bought by a mm and not carried west.

in general any normal use item found in st louis made it to the plains, sometimes in short supply and dear but could be found.

At the risk of being facetious - anything made anywhere in the world could have "made it to the Rockies". The fact is, we know that isn't true.

This supposition is used by some to justify anything they wish to use in any part of North America, at any period of time.

 

[George]

Prior to the invention of the Cotton gin (Eli Whitney, patented 1794), making cotton thread (and ultimately cotton cloth) was labor-intensive and expensive. That doesn't mean cotton fabric didn't exist, it does however mean that it was a luxury/expensive product.

You might want to research that idea a little more. I've been hearing it since I got into the game, but have come to think it's another of those re-enactorisms. Searching the newspapers of the 18th century I find literally thousands of items for cotton. Most are for cotton items for sale, so their cost and quality can't be judged. Many, many are for runaway servants wearing all sorts of cotton clothing items... so maybe hand-me-downs and worn out. But there is a significant bunch of them mentioning slaves wearing cotton items, even special cotton cloth made for clothing slaves. I can't imagine that being anything but the cheapest cloth available. A whole cottage industry built up in Wales for a coarse, cheap cloth used for slave clothing, called Welch plains, which were apparently made of linen, or Welch cottons.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
September 21, 1734
Charleston, South Carolina
Just imported in Capt. Baker from London, and to be sold by SEAL and COOPER, Choice Welsh Plaids and Cottons for Negroe clothing, Duffels of several sorts,

The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 4, 1734
RUN away on Thursday last from the House of John Richardson, Shoemaker, a new Negroe Girl about 16 or 18 Years of Age, short Stature, branded upon the Breast N. R. mark'd round the Neck with three Rows like Beads, suppos'd to be a Whedaw Negroe; had on a check'd Cotton Petticoat and a Seersucker Jacket. Her name is Rose.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
June 9, 1733
Charleston, South Carolina
Run away, about a Fortnight ago, from Mr. Andrew Allen's Plantation called Old Barns , a Negro Fellow of a middle size, well-sett, speaks no English: He had on when he run away, a white cotton Jacket & Breeches,

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
April 7, 1733
Charleston, South Carolina
JUST Imported”¦ Mens and Womens Gloves, walsh Cottons , Pewter, Indian Trading Guns,

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
April 21, 1733
Charleston, South Carolina
RUN away from Charlestown, the seventh Instant at Night, three Negro Sawyers, belonging to Mrs. Catherine Bettison, named Primus, Venture, and Syphax. They were well cloathed in Welch Cottons of a yellow Colour, and carried their Blanket's & Cloaths along with them;

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
December 23, 1732
Charlestown, South Carolina
Lately imported, and to be Sold, by Isaac Chardon”¦. A Choice Parcel of good blue and white Cottons, fit for Negro cloathing,

Notice that these items are in the early 1730s.

It doesn't seem logical to me that slaves would be clothed in an expensive, luxury type of cloth, so I think our impression of cotton's place in history is skewed.

Spence

 

[Ringel05]

Prior to the invention of the Cotton gin (Eli Whitney, patented 1794), making cotton thread (and ultimately cotton cloth) was labor-intensive and expensive. That doesn't mean cotton fabric didn't exist, it does however mean that it was a luxury/expensive product.

You might want to research that idea a little more. I've been hearing it since I got into the game, but have come to think it's another of those re-enactorisms. Searching the newspapers of the 18th century I find literally thousands of items for cotton. Most are for cotton items for sale, so their cost and quality can't be judged. Many, many are for runaway servants wearing all sorts of cotton clothing items... so maybe hand-me-downs and worn out. But there is a significant bunch of them mentioning slaves wearing cotton items, even special cotton cloth made for clothing slaves. I can't imagine that being anything but the cheapest cloth available. A whole cottage industry built up in Wales for a coarse, cheap cloth used for slave clothing, called Welch plains, which were apparently made of linen, or Welch cottons.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
September 21, 1734
Charleston, South Carolina
Just imported in Capt. Baker from London, and to be sold by SEAL and COOPER, Choice Welsh Plaids and Cottons for Negroe clothing, Duffels of several sorts,

The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 4, 1734
RUN away on Thursday last from the House of John Richardson, Shoemaker, a new Negroe Girl about 16 or 18 Years of Age, short Stature, branded upon the Breast N. R. mark'd round the Neck with three Rows like Beads, suppos'd to be a Whedaw Negroe; had on a check'd Cotton Petticoat and a Seersucker Jacket. Her name is Rose.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
June 9, 1733
Charleston, South Carolina
Run away, about a Fortnight ago, from Mr. Andrew Allen's Plantation called Old Barns , a Negro Fellow of a middle size, well-sett, speaks no English: He had on when he run away, a white cotton Jacket & Breeches,

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
April 7, 1733
Charleston, South Carolina
JUST Imported”¦ Mens and Womens Gloves, walsh Cottons , Pewter, Indian Trading Guns,

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
April 21, 1733
Charleston, South Carolina
RUN away from Charlestown, the seventh Instant at Night, three Negro Sawyers, belonging to Mrs. Catherine Bettison, named Primus, Venture, and Syphax. They were well cloathed in Welch Cottons of a yellow Colour, and carried their Blanket's & Cloaths along with them;

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
December 23, 1732
Charlestown, South Carolina
Lately imported, and to be Sold, by Isaac Chardon”¦. A Choice Parcel of good blue and white Cottons, fit for Negro cloathing,

Notice that these items are in the early 1730s.

It doesn't seem logical to me that slaves would be clothed in an expensive, luxury type of cloth, so I think our impression of cotton's place in history is skewed.

Spence

Slave clothing was Jeancloth, a very loose weave of cotton and wool, cheap and easy to make.
As for cotton I'm finding more info to refute Black Hand's claims.
between 1804 and 1806 42% of Britain's exports were cotton goods, most going to it's colonies and were made inexpensive due to machines like the Spinning Jenny (circa 1774).
Around 1791 America became the largest importer of British cotton goods due Anglo-French conflict on the European continent. Between 1801 and the 1830s American became the largest world exporter of cotton surpassing tobacco as the cash crop of the south.
Also as sail size grew sails started to be made from the much lighter cotton and many sail makers also manufactured tarps.
In the 1790s the Lancashire the textile mills, powered by water and run using cheap labor put the individual weavers out of business.
So it appears that if one's impression is post 1800 it's highly likely that their tarps and tents (not to mention trousers) were made of cotton.

 

[Black Hand]

As for cotton I'm finding more info to refute Black Hand's claims.

Excellent!
I look forwards to seeing the information as it appears to add support to the thoughts I have about the availability of cotton goods in the Pre-Rev Ameican colonies.

Now if we could only nail down when cotton canvas was first used for tentage...

 

[tenngun]

So what was it that was sold in st louis say in 1830 that could not have made it out west ,that could have been used there?I dont think many MM would want a ladder back chair.or a secratary lap desk.Perfume,bricks.and silverheaded canes,most likly wern't transpoted west.I know pauly breech loading guns could be had in France but I dont know that any came to America,Ive never read of 16th century chinies lacqure ware being sold anywhere at this time, so I doubt that any was in St louis.But just what frontier usable item that was sold in St louis in 1830 was not avalible to someone in the west?Canvas was sold in Stlouis in 1830.I don't think it was cotton,but today we accept cotton canvas since linnin and hemp are so costly.Even if you could afford it its still not exatly like what was sold back then.When we reenact the past we have to accept that no matter how hard we try we miss the boat.Do you hand sew your woolen,good for you.On the other hand you cant get cloth like they had then,all you can do is apoxamate it.If you want to keep an authintic camp you cant pass a rule that says sunforger or cotton canvas is ok for wedge tents but not for traps and "pack covers".Back to the post that started all this was could a dimond shelter be used for a MM camp.I've read lots of referances to tents being used in the west,but do not recall "wedge" or "a" frame.We know wedge tents were used in this time frame but I expect most of the "tents" mentioned at this time were tarps put up in any way that worked in that spot.Today 1/2 faced,next day dome,day after that ground cover.I my self have never seen an invoice for premade tents.If there is such an invoice it still dosen't prove plain canvas tarps wern't carried out west.Yes if you were a MM in 1830 anything sold in St louis could be in your pack.Would you carry cast iron,silver forks,pottery choclot pots?No I dont think you would want the weight.Would you carry a canvas tarp or a hunk of old tipi,you just might.At least records show some folks were.

 

[George]

Now if we could only nail down when cotton canvas was first used for tentage...

I've spent a fair amount of time trying to sort out when cotton was first used for canvas, have found nothing, and have run out of ideas how to approach it. I'd appreciate any leads which show up.

Spence

 

[Claude Mathis]

So what was it that was sold in st louis say in 1830 that could not have made it out west ,that could have been used there?I dont think many MM would want a ladder back chair.or a secratary lap desk.Perfume,bricks.and silverheaded canes,most likly wern't transpoted west.

I think you just answered your own question. A lot of things that were available in the world were not available to the Mountain Men of the Rockies. And the list goes on.

 

[tenngun]

So enlighten me.What was it that a MM could have wanted,could have made use of in a resonable sense, that was sold in st louis at that time that he could not have had in the west.Today stores sell a wide varity of stuff.Some stuff used to hunt or camp with.I dont take stemware camping,even though its avalible,its not resonable.If a MM wanted something to use in the west that was sold in St louis he could get it.Even if he had to ride east and buy it and return west.

 

[Ringel05]

As for cotton I'm finding more info to refute Black Hand's claims.

Excellent!
I look forwards to seeing the information as it appears to add support to the thoughts I have about the availability of cotton goods in the Pre-Rev Ameican colonies.

Now if we could only nail down when cotton canvas was first used for tentage...

Pre-rev? No, post 1800 yes. Maybe I misread what you were addressing. Most of my sources are the same as yours, though I do tend to cringe using Wikipedia as a source. As for the rest they're in print form:
The Run of the Mill. Steve Dunwell
World Textiles: A Concise History (World of Art)
Mary Schoeser
Also just found this which seems to verify your pre-rev war assertions:
Link
As for when cotton canvas was first used for tenting...... in America...... Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Trench]

Now if we could only nail down when cotton canvas was first used for tentage...

I've spent a fair amount of time trying to sort out when cotton was first used for canvas, have found nothing, and have run out of ideas how to approach it. I'd appreciate any leads which show up.

Spence

I don't know about canvas, but the Census Bureau shows that the Assistant Marshalls reported that 54,977 yards of cotton goods was made in Indiana Territory in 1810 for a value of $34,306. That's about .62 cents a yard. There's no indication of what all that fabric was being used for.

 

[Black Hand]

As for cotton I'm finding more info to refute Black Hand's claims.

Excellent!
I look forwards to seeing the information as it appears to add support to the thoughts I have about the availability of cotton goods in the Pre-Rev Ameican colonies.

Now if we could only nail down when cotton canvas was first used for tentage...

Pre-rev? No, post 1800 yes. Maybe I misread what you were addressing. Most of my sources are the same as yours, though I do tend to cringe using Wikipedia as a source. As for the rest they're in print form:
The Run of the Mill. Steve Dunwell
World Textiles: A Concise History (World of Art)
Mary Schoeser
Also just found this which seems to verify your pre-rev war assertions:
Link
As for when cotton canvas was first used for tenting...... in America...... Your guess is as good as mine.

The best we can do at this time is make an informed guess. I also don't really favor Wikipedia as a source, but it works OK as a starting point.

To address Spences' statement about slaves wearing cotton - In part this could be due to the use of cast-off or hand-me-down clothing. This would be tied to wealth, where the keeping of slaves was a indirect indicator of wealth, and therefore the owner could afford to buy (and discard) expensive articles of clothing.

With regards to tentage, I agree with the a post-1800 date. The defining factor was most likely cost. Once the cotton mills were humming along, the price of cotton material dropped as it then became less labor-intensive (and hence less expensive) than hemp or linen.

 

[Ringel05]

As for cotton I'm finding more info to refute Black Hand's claims.

Excellent!
I look forwards to seeing the information as it appears to add support to the thoughts I have about the availability of cotton goods in the Pre-Rev Ameican colonies.

Now if we could only nail down when cotton canvas was first used for tentage...

Pre-rev? No, post 1800 yes. Maybe I misread what you were addressing. Most of my sources are the same as yours, though I do tend to cringe using Wikipedia as a source. As for the rest they're in print form:
The Run of the Mill. Steve Dunwell
World Textiles: A Concise History (World of Art)
Mary Schoeser
Also just found this which seems to verify your pre-rev war assertions:
Link
As for when cotton canvas was first used for tenting...... in America...... Your guess is as good as mine.

The best we can do at this time is make an informed guess. I also don't really favor Wikipedia as a source, but it works OK as a starting point.

To address Spences' statement about slaves wearing cotton - In part this could be due to the use of cast-off or hand-me-down clothing. This would be tied to wealth, where the keeping of slaves was a indirect indicator of wealth, and therefore the owner could afford to buy (and discard) expensive articles of clothing.

With regards to tentage, I agree with the a post-1800 date. The defining factor was most likely cost. Once the cotton mills were humming along, the price of cotton material dropped as it then became less labor-intensive (and hence less expensive) than hemp or linen.

BTW, I did find Hemp fabric online and not for the usual $24 to $28 range.
This is, what they call, 100% hemp linen (why they use the word linen I don't know). 12oz per square, 100% hemp, $14.99 to $17.75 depending on amount bought.
Hemp Fabric

 

[Black Hand]

Thanks for the link!

 

[Ringel05]

Jean-wool (jean-cloth), originally made in Genoa Italy 150 years before the American Revolution, was exported throughout Europe and Britain and eventually to the Americas. It was a blend of wool and cotton, wool and silk or wool and linen.
Most of the jean wool in the colonies was home made (70% wool, 30% cotton) and was relatively inexpensive due to it's lasting durablity so was mainly a poor man's fabric, hence used extensively for slave clothing.

 

[Coot]

This post is addressed to the subject of cotton production in general (and thus it's likely availability) and is not directed at any specific previous post.

With a bit of digging, I found some interesting numbers from:
"Cotton and the Growth of the American Economy" Bruchey 1967.

Up to 1800, 99% of cotton exports from the American colonies was to Great Britain & in 1784 this was 10 bales totaling 1000 pounds. By 1787 this had grown to 16,000 pounds, largely sea island cotton (long staple) from S. Carolina. By 1791, American production was up to about 2,000,000 pounds of which 189,316 was exported. At this point (1791) American production was 2,000,000 pounds or a tiny 0.4% of the world total, estimated at 469,000,000 pounds. The next ten years saw a huge jump, to 48,000,000 pounds or 9.2% of the world's then total of 521,000,000 pounds of cotton in 1801. While about two dozen textile mills were opened in the US from 1783 to 1800, most were bankrupted by competition from British mills. US mills were not really able to compete until after about 1820.
So it would appear that except for the war years of the Revolution, the vast majority of all textiles available up until well into the 19th c were imported & it is those import records that should tell us what was available and what was "commonplace".

 

[Ringel05]

Here's a couple of interesting links:

A History of Cotton Mills and the Industrial Revolution

Cotton manufacture

 

[Ringel05]

Another link that shows the word "cotton" didn't always refer to what we know of as cotton.

Cotton cloth

Generally CLOTH made of COTTON. However, the OED reference taken from Haklyut's Voyages (1598) 'The poorer sort do line their clothes with cotton-cloth which is made of the finest wool they can pick out', suggests that the term 'cotton cloth' did sometimes have the first meaning given in this Dictionary under 'cotton' and did not always refer to cotton as we would understand it today. The term has only once been noted in the Dictionary Archive where CALICO and MUSLIN seem to have been the preferred terms before 1700 and thereafter simply 'cotton' or 'cottons'. Cotton cloth was, however, a commodity noted in the Gloucester Coastal Port Books between 1682 and 1726.

OED earliest date of use: 1552

Sources: Patents.

British History Online

There is a wealth of definition information.

 

[Coot]

Looks to be a very interesting site - thanks for posting the link.
Reinforces the idea that when we see a "reference" to something, we must be very careful in assuming that the words used had the meanings that are common in our time......

 

[Ringel05]

Looks to be a very interesting site - thanks for posting the link.
Reinforces the idea that when we see a "reference" to something, we must be very careful in assuming that the words used had the meanings that are common in our time......

So true. Take the word corn, in Europe it meant all forms of grain and wasn't until after new world "corn" was introduced to Europeans did the current usage start to become defined.