Period Correct??

Are Diamond shelters period correct for the periods of 1820-1840 on Fur Trade/Mountainman era? I have heard than some rondys will not allow? Other say that the Diamond was of 20th century. I know that there has been a lot about the Diamond shelters on here latley, but no information on this? Any help would be great.
Aim small, miss small..

 

[necchi]

Found this;

Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photographs of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at picnic/ camping trips.

Just outside of the typical 1832 cut-off for a Furtrade era representaion, :idunno:
Don't have any trouble with'm at the vous I attend

 

[LRB]

A pyramid tent is not a diamond shelter. A diamond shelter is a large square of cloth pegged on three, or four corners with a short pole of maybe 3' making an entrance. Pretty much just for sleeping and protecting gear.

 

[Birdman]

CS thats the beauty or a shelter like that. If the thread counters have a problem with it, switch yer poles around a bit n turn it into a lean-to.I alwaya carried poles to set up both ways when at a Rondy. Heck the vehicle did all the work of toten them so it wasn't any sweat for me.Tossed all the poles next to my camp n depending on the weather, breeze etc I might switch how my canvas was set up a couple times during the week. Only takes a couple minutes so what the heck.thread counters have their uses by keeping us all thinking n researching to make sure we are as right as WE! WANT! to be, but they can be a pain when their way is the only way.Inovation and invention are a human trait and at a rondy yer not really recreating a particular piece of history but more trying to create a feel and look of that time period. I've been doing this crazy hobby for near 30 years n usually tell the thread counters to pack sand, to each his/her own(within reason)Heck I went for years with just a 7x7 tarp if I had a shelter at all. Got wet n was cold many many times, everybody has to start somewhere n progress from there. Go !!! and enjoy, learn while yer there, best advice is leave yer wallet in the tent, get ideas n do yer research(which yer doing already)then decide n buy, it will save ya a ton of cash in the long run. Just some thoughts, YMHS Birdman

 

[necchi]

A pyramid tent is not a diamond shelter.

Thank you,, :redface: :redface:

 

Birdman, Thank you for the reply. I do not think I will go wrong with a Diamond, and as you say bring a few extra poles and swith it.
Aim small, miss small..

 

[shortbow]

I don't see how the MOST IMPASSIONED thread counter could possible by troubled by a diamond shelter. As far as I'm concerned they're a hell of a lot more PC/HC than a canvas tipi.

I also am from the rocky mtn. fur trade era and it seems to me that a square of canvas, oznaburg sheeting or whatever is the basic form of shelter any trapper would have had. How it is rigged is the question, and I can't see how a feller back then couldn't have figured out how to set it up as a diamond just as easily as a simple raised square or rectangle.

The rondys with a sea of gleaming white tipis and humongous wall tents looks real nice and all, I like the look as much as the next guy, but PC? I think not.

Only way I'd change my mind is to see period documentation to the contrary.

 

[jbtusa]

Shortbow: You are right-on!

 

[ny griz]

:hmm: What Birdman said,yea.Griz

 

[Black Hand]

Shelters of blankets or hides (half-faced) are mentioned but canvas shelters (i.e. the Diamond) don't appear to be common. As a matter of fact, there seems to be very little mention of canvas shelters at all.....except for an occasional tent.

Now, along major waterways and coast-lines, the story is different. They had access to sails and oil-cloth.

 

[Birdman]

Black Hand , you are completely correct. What most guys don't realize is that the romantic idea of the "lone trapper" against the wilds of the mountains is a thing of fiction for the most part. Most mountain men were in the company of many others who set up a trading area(fort or sorts) and went out for a couple weeks at a time n then brought back their plews to a centralized collection area (the fort)where they were reprocessed n stored for the eventual trip back east. the famous ones Bridger, carson , Meek etc were stand outs in the industry. some became captains of their own companies n explored new areas looking for beaver. Very seldom did a lone trapper survive long in the wilds because there are just to many things to do, watch n be wary of for one person to do it all. The same goes for the romantic view of the stoic Native American striding through the wilds on his own. The worst punishment going from what i've read was banishment from the tribe, it was pretty much a death sentancefor the offender. Just some thoughts YMHS Birdman

 

[LaBonte]

The rondys with a sea of gleaming white tipis and humongous wall tents looks real nice and all, I like the look as much as the next guy, but PC? I think not.

Only way I'd change my mind is to see period documentation to the contrary.

Then with due respect you should look up the records for how many Indians were at rendezvous - whole tribes in some instances showed up including their lodges.
1) For written documentation - read the journals here: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

and it wasn't just at rendezvous that at least some lived in lodges - winter camps were often amde amongst the Indians (see Osborne Russell) and others took lodges with them (See Ogden's Snake River journals.

2) Look at the works of AJ Miller from the rendezvous - there are hundreds of lodges shown.
here's one view: http://art.thewalters.org/webimages/PL1_37.1940.110_Fnt_TR_II.jpg

note the large number of lodges, but also the half shelter on the right and in the center a large wall type tent.

and another couple: http://art.thewalters.org/webimage....org/webimages/PS1_37.1940.199_Fnt_DD_T09.jpg

As a matter of fact, there seems to be very little mention of canvas shelters at all.....except for an occasional tent.

WHile it's true that tents are seldom mentioned Miller again shows several - a simple pup tent style often made with sometype of striped cloth, perhaps ticking? - http://art.thewalters.org/webimages/PL1_37.1940.177_Fnt_TR_T95.jpg

as Birdamn noted the whole "free trapper" concept has been blow far out of proportion to the facts - there were in fact two levels of free trappers for one thing. the skin trapper and the true on your own hook type, which were the least of all and even they seldom traveled by themselves. The most famous of this type was Bill Williams, but even he hooked up with larger brigades when in Blackfoot country.

 

[Black Hand]

The caveat to LaBontes' Tipi comment: If I remember correctly, canvas for tipis did not become common until later (reservation period). But hide tipis would have been common.

 

[LaBonte]

Blackhand is correct about the date of canvas tipis, but like using steel for barrels instead of wrought iron, etc. it is a fairly necessary "evil" for todays re-enactors due to cost - yes there are folks who have made and used buffalo hide lodges, but they are few and far between and VERY expensive or lot of HARD work.
Is it worth - each of us will need to decide that..........

 

[shortbow]

Firstly i've read many a list of trade goods going out that mention "tarp" material of one sort of another.

Second, the point is that yes, there were many lodges at rondy, but a)they were mostly brought and used by the NDNs and b) they were, as mentioned NOT canvas.

My point is that if tipis of canvas are smiled on at "traditional" rondy, then it is absolutely not fair, reasonable or sensible to censure diamond shelters.

And lastly, even if most trappers were working for brigades, they, as singles or pairs going out to trap, would have needed personal shelter and a tarp would be that shelter. And a diamond rig makes as much sense as any other way of setting it up. Especially in the Southwest where in some areas trees are rare as hen's teeth, one or two poles or even a rifle would serve a diamond support while the "leanto" needs a lot more and longer poles.

But at the end of the day my main point is that if canvas tipis and large wall tents are acceptable then a diamond must also in all fairness be as well.

 

[Black Hand]

It takes time to build a shelter. Lots of descriptions of "throwing down" around a fire - NO shelter involved. It is also much easier to wrap up in a piece of tarp (if you have it) than it is to waste time turning it into a shelter. But then again, why build a "house" when you can take shelter under a tree (been there, done that, stayed dry at night).

In all fairness, tipis (materials aside) and wall tents CAN be documented, NOT the diamond shelter.

But as I am one of those "thread counters", I guess I'll just go "pack sand"....

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Black Hand , you are completely correct. What most guys don't realize is that the romantic idea of the "lone trapper" against the wilds of the mountains is a thing of fiction for the most part. Most mountain men were in the company of many others who set up a trading area(fort or sorts) and went out for a couple weeks at a time n then brought back their plews to a centralized collection area (the fort)where they were reprocessed n stored for the eventual trip back east. the famous ones Bridger, carson , Meek etc were stand outs in the industry. some became captains of their own companies n explored new areas looking for beaver. Very seldom did a lone trapper survive long in the wilds because there are just to many things to do, watch n be wary of for one person to do it all. The same goes for the romantic view of the stoic Native American striding through the wilds on his own. The worst punishment going from what i've read was banishment from the tribe, it was pretty much a death sentancefor the offender. Just some thoughts YMHS Birdman

Romantic or not. There were free trappers. Why does it have to be the majority to be PC/HC?

 

[Black Hand]

Even the free-trappers wandered around in brigades/groups (safety in numbers and all that). Being alone, all too easily, resulted in ending up dead not rich....

 

[Pete Gaimari]

That's why so many died.

 

[Black Hand]

Lots of them died in company too. Illness and injury took its toll in addition to "high-velocity lead poisoning"....