• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

PC Knives vs. Modern Designs & Materials

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Don't believe a forged knife is always stronger than the knife that was shaped /ground by the stock removal method.

The forged knife blade is as good as the man that forged it.. It could be said ,if two knife blades were made from like metals,the knife made with the power belt grinder will have more of its original carbon content intact than the knife that was brought to heat in a forge a dozen times before its final shaping..



There are lots of guys calling themselves knife makers by the forging method that do nothing other than pound on the store bought metal enough to put but few marks and do everything else by the electric powered belt sander.

Don't get me wrong . I love pounding metal in to shape and using my hand tools to finish up. But at the same time I make no claims my knives are superior to that of those that use strictly power tools for their end..

I am of the opinion that what ever we do and say requaires deeper though than to say we are this or that and what we made is period correct or not..

Twice.
 
The original question was...

"are there more modern designed knives and handle materials being excepted in the muzzleloading pastime and even the with PC re-enactors?"

Please stay on topic and start a new topic for discussing modern knife making.

Thanks
 
Sorry . By looking at the times I see that we posted just about the same time. Plesase delete my post as I do not know how to.
Twice.
 
Some thoughts, observations, and info...
1)Creative Categories - this a paraphrase from Alex Kozlov's book on building "Plains Indian Knife Sheaths" - some food for thought
REPLICAS: The copying with exact reproduction of all features of an original, including dimensions, size and color of beads, number of stitches, and all other materials, including painting.
MADE AFTER: Closely copying an original with fair selection of its materials or close substitutes, beads and close colors,and layout of the design pattern.
IN THE STYLE: When a piece is made "in Style", it bears all features that belong to this particular cultural region, ethnicity, or time period.
THE ORIGINAL: Any piece created entirely from the imagination of the craftsman, whether two hundred years ago or yesterday and having no exact analog - a complete original while still using appropriate materials, methods, etc.(various genres of the Neo-tribal art movement are a good example as is the "new school" guns being produced today by such craftsmen as the House Brothers.) The quality of craftsmanship is the main measure of the piece. Problems with "in Style" or "Original" pieces only arise if they are mis-labeled as Replicas, Reproductions, or Copies.

2) Some info on steels of the 18th to the mid19th Century:
1) Blister-steel: Steel formed by roasting wrought iron bars in contact with carbon in a cementing furnace. It is so called from the blistered appearance of it's outer skin. To improve the quality,it was subjected to two subsequent processes, which converted it into shear-steel and cast-steel. Blister steel was NOT a one off method for individual blades, but rather a method of making large amounts of steel - this method was developed circa the 1500's. James Hanson mentions in his Fur Trade Cutlery Sketch Book, that the bars of wrought iron used for making blister steel could be as large as 1/ 2" x 4" x 20 feet.

2) Shear-steel: Blister-steel was sheared into shorter, manageable lengths, heated, and tilt hammered to homogenize the steel which improved the quality. Several bars are welded together and drawn out. The bar is sometimes cut, fagoted, reheated, and again tilted. This may be repeated. The terms single shear and double shear indicate the extent to which the process is carried. It was widely used for blades of all types through the end of the 19th Century.

3) Cast-steel (aka crucible steel): Blister steel which has been broken up, fused in a crucible, cast into ingots, and rolled. The blocks of steel are melted in crucibles of re fractory clay, and the molten metal is poured into ingot-molds of cast-iron. These are opened, to let out the red-hot ingot, which is then passed to the rolls.
The process of making cast/crucible steel was developed by Benjamin Huntsman, of Sheffield, England, circa 1745. Oddly, crucible steel at first was not greeted well by the Sheffield makers while the French cutlers soon recognized it's qualities. The Sheffield makers even went so far as to ask the government for an embargo on the raw steel. By 1840 the English had developed the cast steel method to the point that English steel made in this way became 40% (about 20,000 tons a year - up from the 200 tons a year produced by the English using all previous methods) of all steel produced in Europe. Other steel centers of note during the period were: Germany (manganese and other trace minerals in the local ore made it a better than normal alloy), Spain, and Sweden). A few years later, in the 1850's, the Bessemer process was developed which increased steel production immensely.

more later - my wife just drove up with a car load of groceries........
 
You can get a good idea of the Sheffield finish from good condition table knives... and also a good idea of variation ind so-called "sets."

I'll post this again, cause it has lots of good info:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6_oGAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA260&dq=cutlery&as_brr=1#PRA1-PA409,M1

THE CIRCLE OF THE MECHANICAL ARTS;
CONTAINING PRACTICAL TREATISES ON THE VARIOUS
MANUAL ARTS, TRADES, AND MANUFACTURES.
BY THOMAS MARTIN, CIVIL ENGINEER,
ASSISTED BY EMINENT PROFESSIONAL MECHANICS AND
MANUFACTURERS.
3(lluotratea bp numerous
LONDON:
PRINTED FOR RICHARD REES, 62, PALL MALL;
GALE, CURTIS, AND FENNERj AND SHERWOOD, NEELEY, AND JONES, PATERNOSTER-ROW;
AND W. CURTIS, PLYMOUTH.
1813.

CUTLERY.
ТHE manufacture of edged tools is one of the first
arts among men in every state of society. Workmen in
general are aware of the necessity that the instruments
of their respective trades should be made to possess the
qualities adapted to the operations by which they gain
their subsistence : and, among the various subdivisions
of labour, there is no material upon which the skill of
mechanics is more exercised than steel. The makers
of files, of chisels, of planes, and saws, and the infinite
variety of knives, all occupy departments separate from
each other, and possess their respective degrees of celebrity,
which are grounded on their knowledge of the
peculiar kinds of steel, as well as the methods of working
them, which are best adapted to the intended ope-
ratkms. Many of these methods are kept secret ; but
there are some manufacturers who have no reserve with
regard to the manipulations of their art, and have the
spirit to assert their claims to public encouragement
upon the fair ground of the address and integrity with
which they conduct their labours. This article will be
much indebted to the communications of Mr. Stodart,
inserted in some of our periodical publications, and to
a very able article on the subject in the New Cyclopedia.
Though cutlery, in the general sense, comprises all
those articles denominated edge-tools, it is more particularly
confined to the manufacture of knives, forks,
scissars, pen-knives, razors, and swords. Damascus
was anciently famed for its razors and swords. The
latter are said to possess the advantages of flexibility,
elasticity and hardness. Those articles of cutlery which
do not require a fine polish, and are of low price, are
made from blistered STEEL (whichsee). Those articles
which require the edge to possess great tenacity, and
at the same time superior hardness is not required, are
made from sheer steel. The finer kinds of cutlery are
made from steel which has been in a state of fusion,
and which is termed cast-steel, no other kinds being
susceptible of a fine polish. Table knives are mostly
made of sheer-steel, the tang and shoulder being of
iron, the blade being attached by giving them a welding
heat. The knives after forging are hardened by heating
them red hot, and plunging them into water ; they are
afterwards heated over the fire till they become blue and
then ground. The handles of table-knives are made of
ivory, horn, bone, stag-horn, and wood, into which the
blades are cemented with resin and pulverized brick.
Forks are made almost altogether, by the aid of the
stamp and appropriate dies. The prongs only are hardened and tempered. Razors are made of cast-steel, the edge of a razor requiring the combined advantages of great hardness and tenacity. After the razor blade is forged, it is hardened by gradually heating it to a bright red heat and plunging it into cold water. It is tempered by heating it afterwards till a brightened part appears of a straw colour. It would be more equally effected by sand, or what is still better in hot oil, or fusible mixture, consisting of eight parts of bismuth, five of lead, and three of tin ; a thermometer being placed in the liquid at the time the razors are immersed, for the purpose of indicating the proper temperature, which is about 500 of Fahrenheit. After the razor ha* been ground into its proper shape, it is finished by polishing. The glazor is formed of wood, faced with an alloy of lead and tin ; after its face is turned to the proper form and size it is filled with notches which are filled up with emery and tallow. This instrument gives the razor a smooth and uniform surface ¡nul u line edge. The polisher consists of a piece of circular wood running upon an axis, like that of the stone or the glazor. It is coated with leather, having its surface covered with crocus marl is. The handles of high priced razors are made of ivory and tortoise shell, but in general they are of polished horn, which are preferred as well ou account of their cheapness as their durability. The bora is cut into pieces and placed between two dies, having a recess of the shape of the handle. By this process the horn admits of a considerable extension ; if the hora is not previously black, the handles are dyed black by means of logwood and green vitriol. The clear horn handles are sometimes stained so -as to imitate the tortoise-shell : this is effected by laying upon the handle a composition of three parts of potash, one of minium, ten of quick-lime, and as much water as will make the whole into a pulpy mass. Those parts of the handle requiring darker shades, are covered thicker than the other. After this substance is laid upon the handles, they are placed before the fire the time requisite for giving the proper effect. The manufacture of penknives is divided into three departments ; the first is the forging of the blades, the spring, and the iron scales ; the second, the grinding and polishing of the blades ; and the third, the handling, which consists in fitting up all the parts, and finishing the knife. The blades are made of the best cast steel, and hardened and tempered to about the same degree with that of razors. In grinding they are made a little more concave on one side than the other, in other respects they are treated in a similar
way

CUTLERY. 961


way to razors. The handles are covered with horn,
ivory, and sometimes wood ; but the most durable are
those of stag-horn. The general fault in peu-knives is
that of being too soft. The temper ought to be not
higher than a straw colour, as it seldom happens that
a pen-knife is so hard as to snap on the edge. The
beauty and elegance of polished steel is not displayed to
more advantage than in the manufacture of the finer
kinds of scissars. The steel employed for the more
valuable scissars should be cast steel of the choices
qualities; it must possess hardness and uniformity о
texture for the sake of assuming a fine polish, great tenacity
when 1 к>t for the purpose of forming the bow о
Hug of the scissar, which requires to be extended from
a solid piece having a hole previously punched through
it. It ought abo to be very tenacious when cold, to al
low that delicacy of form observed in those scissar
termed ladies' scissars. After the scissars are forget
as near to the same size as the eye of the workman caí
ascertain, they are paired. The bows and some othe
parts are filed to their intended form : the blades are
also roughly ground, and the two sides properly ad
justed to each other, after being bound together with «
ire and hardened up to the bows. They are afterwards
heated till they become of a purple colour
vliich indicates their proper temper. Almost all the
remaining part of the work is performed at the grinding
mill, with the stone, the lap, the polisher, and the
brush ; the latter is used to polish those parts which havi
been filed, and which the lap and (he polisher canno
touch. Previously to screwiug the scisears together for
the last time, they are rubbed over with the powder o;
quick lime, and afterwards wiped clean with a skin o:
soft sheep leather. The quick-lime absorbs the moisture
from the surface, to which the rusting of steel is
justly attributed. Scissars are sometimes beautifully
ornamented by blueing and gilding, and also with studs
of gold or polished steel. The very large scissars are
partly of iron and partly of steel, the shanks and bows
being of the former. These, as well as those all ol
steel, which are not hardened all over, cannot be polished :
an inferior sort of lustre, however, is given to
them by means of a burnish of hardened polished steel, Ӣ
which is very easily distinguished from the real polish by
the irregularity of the surface. Having entered into
tbese particulars relating to the manufacture of the
usual articles found in cutlers' shops, we shall speak of
some of the more general principles that are applicable
to the finer articles of cutlery.
Cutlers do not use any coating to their work at the
hardening heat as the file cutters do ; and indeed it
seems evidently unnecessary when the article is intended
to be tempered and ground. The best rule is to harden as
little as possible above the state intended to be produced
by tempering. Work which has been overheated has a
crumbly edge, and will not afford the wire hereafter to
by day-light. No advantage is obtained from the use be described. The proper heat is a cherry red visible
of salt in the water, or cooling that fluid, or from using mercury instead of water, but it may be remarked, that questions respecting the fluid are, properly speaking, applicable only to files, gravers, and such toóle 43 are intended to be left at the extreme of hardness. Yet though M r. Stodart does not seem to attach much va* lue to peculiarities in the process of hardening, he mentions it as the observation and practice of one of his workmen, that the charcoal fire should be made up with shavings of leather: and upon being asked what good he supposed the leather could do, this workman replied, that he could take upon him to say, that he never had a razor crack in the hardening since he had used this method, though it was a very common accident before. It appears from the consideration of other facts, that this process is likely to prove advantageous. When brittle substances crack in cooling, it always happens from the outside contracting and becoming too small to contain the interior parts. But it is known, that hard steel occupies more space than when soft, and it may easily be inferred, that the nearer the steel approaches to the state of iron the less will be this increase of dimensions. If, then, we suppose a razor,, or any other piece of steel, to be heated in an open fire with a current of air passing through it, the external part will, by the loss of carbon become less steely than before ; and when the whole piece comes to be hardened, the ineide will be too large for the external part, which will probably crack. But if the piece of steel be wrapped up in the cementing mixture, or if the fire itself contain animal coal, aud is put together so a* to operate in the manner of that mixture, the external part, instead of being degraded by this heat, will be more carbonated than the internal part, in consequence of which it will be so far from splitting or bursting during its cooling, that it will be acted upon in a contrary direction, tending to render it more dense and solid. One of the greatest difficulties in hardening steel works of any considerable extent, more especially such articles as are formed of thin plates, or have a variety of üirts of different sizes, consists in the apparent imprac- icability of heating the thicker parts before the slighter are burned away ; besides which, even for a piece of uniform figure, it is no easy matter to make up a fire which shall give a speedy heat and be nearly of the ame intensity throughout. " This difficulty," says Mr. Micholson, " formed a very considerable impediment to nj success in a course of delicate steel work, in which . was engaged about seven years ago ; but after various «successful experiments, I succeeded in removing it by ”¢Ðº; use of a bath of melted lead, which for very justi- able reasons has been kept a secret till now. Pure ead, that is to say, lead containing little or no tin, is :,nited to a moderate redness aud then well stirred. uto this the piece is plunged for a few seconds ; that to say, until when brought near the surface that part oes not appear less luminous than the rest. The piece then speedily stirred about in the bath, suddenly drawn out and plunged into a large mass of water. In this manner a plate of steel may be hardened so as to
3X be

CUTLERY.


be perfectly brittle, and yet continue so sound as to I
ring like a bell ; an effect which I never could produce
in any other way. Mr. Stodart has lately made trial of j
this method, and considers it to be a great acquisition ;
to the art, as in fact I found it." The letting down, or ,
tempering of hard steel, is considered as absolutely ne-
eessary for the production of a fine and durable edge. !
It has been usual to do this by heating the hardened
steel till its bright surface exhibits some known colour
by oxidation. The first is a very faint straw colour,
becoming deeper and deeper by increase of heat to a
fine deep golden yellow, which changes irregularly to a
purple, then to an uniform blue, succeeded by white
and several successive faint repetitious of these series.
It is well known, that the hardest state of tempered
instruments, such as razors and surgeons' instruments,
is indicated by this straw colour ; that a deeper colour j
is required for leather-cutters' knives and other tools
that require the edge to be turned on one side ; that
the blue which indicates a good temper for springs is
almost too soft for any cutting instrument, except saws
and such tools as are sharpened with a file, and that the
lower states of hardness are not at all adapted to this
use. But it is of considerable importance that the letting
down or tempering, as well as the hardening,
should be effected by heat equally applied, and that the
temperatures, especially at the lower heats, where
greater hardness is to be left, should be more precisely
ascertained than can be done by the different shades of
oxidation. Mr. Hartley first practised the method of
immersing hard steel in heated oil, or the fusible compound
of lead five parts, tin three, and bismuth eight.
The temperature of either of these fluids may be ascertained
in the usual manner, when it does not exceed
the point at which mercury boils : and by this contrivance
the same advantages are obtained in lowering the
temperature of an whole instrument, or any number of
them at once, as have already been stated in favour of
my method of hardening. Oil is preferable to the
fusible mixture for several reasons. It is cheaper;
it admits of the work being seen during the immersion
by reason of its transparency ; and there is no
occasion for any contrivance to prevent the work from
floating.
Mr. Nicholson requested Mr. Stodart to favour 'him Ӣ
with an account of the temperatures at which the several
colours make their appearance upon hardened steel ;
in compliance with which he made a series of experiments
upon surgeons' needles hardened, highly polished,
and exposed to a gradual heat while floating at the surface
of the fusible mixture. The appearances are as
follow : " No. 1. taken out at 430* of Fahrenheit. This
temperature leaves the steel in the most excellent state
for razors and scalpels. The tarnish, or faint yellowish
tinge it produces is too evanescent to be observed without
comparison with another piece of polished steel.
Instruments in this state retain their edge much longer
than those upon which the actual straw colour has been
brought, as is the common practice. Mr. S. informs me (says Mr. Nicholson) that 430" is the lowest tem- »rr.iUue for letting down, and that the lower degrees will not afford a firm edge. No. 2, at 440°, and 3 at 450°. These needles differ so little in their appearance тот No. 1, that it is not easy to arrange them with certainty when misplaced. No. 4 has the evident tinge which workmen call pale straw colour. It was taken out at 460°, and has the usual temper of pen-knives, razors, and other fine edge tools. It is much softer than No. 1, as Mr. Stodart assures me, and this difference exhibits a valuable proof of the advantages of this method of tempering. Nos. 2, fi, 7 and 8, exhibit successive deeper shades of colour, having been respectively taken out at the temperatures 470°, 480", 49O°, and 500°. The last is of a bright brownish metallic yellow, very slightly inclining to purple. No. 9 obtained an uniform deep blue at the temperature of 580°. The intermediate shades produced on steel by heats- between 500" and 580° are yellow, brown, red, and~ purple, which are exhibited irregularly on different parts- of the surface. As I had before seen this irregularity,, particularly on the surface of a razor of Wootz, and had found in my own experience, that the colours on . different kinds of steel do not correspond with like degrees' of temper, and probably of temperature ¡in their production, I was desirous that some experiments might be made upon it by the same skilful artist. Four beautifully polished blades were therefore exposed to heat on the fusible metal. The first was taken up when it had acquired the fine yellow, or uniform deep straw colour. The second remained on the mixture tiH the part nearest the stem had become purplish, at which period a number of small round spots of a purplish colour appeared in the clear yellow of the blade. The third was left till the thicker parts of the blade were of a deep ruddy purple, but the concave face still continued yellow. This also acquired spots like the other, and a slight cloudiness. These three blades were of cast steel ; the fourth, which was made out of a piece called styrian steel, was left upon the mixture till the red tinge had pervaded almost the whole of its concave face. Two or three spots appeared upon this blade, but the greater part of its surface was variegated with blue clouds, disposed in such a manner as to produce' those waving lines which. in Damascus steel are called the water. Two results are more immediately suggested by these facts ; first, that the irregular production of a deep colour upon the surface of brightened steel, may serve to indicate the want of uniformity in its composition ; and secondly, that the deep colour being observed to come on first at the thickest parts, Mr. Stodart was disposed to think, that its more speedy appearance was owing to those parts not having been hardened. Suppose our cutting instrument to be forged, hardened, and let down or tempered. It re- ' mains to be ground, polished, and set. The grinding of fine cutlery is performed upon a grind-stone of a fine close grit, called a Bilson grind-stone, and sold at the tool shops in -London at a moderate price. The '
cutlers

CUTLERY.


cutlers use water, and do not seem to know any thing
of the method by tallow. The face of the work is
rendered finer by subsequent grinding upon mahogany
cylinders, with emery of different fineness, or upon
cylinders faced with hard pewter, called laps, which are
preferable to those with a wooden face. The last polish
is given upon a cylinder faced with buff leather, to
which crocus, or the red oxide of iron is applied with
water. - This last operation is attended with considerable
danger of heating the work, and almost instantly
reducing its temper along the thin edge, which at the
same time acquires the colours of oxidation. The setting
now remains to be performed, which is a work of
much delicacy and skill : so much so, indeed, that Mr.
Stodart says, he cannot produce the most exquisite and
perfect edge if interrupted by conversation, or even by
noises in the street. The tool is first whetted upon a
hone with oil, by rubbing it backwards and forwards.
In all the processes of grinding or wearing down the
edge, but more especially in the setting, the artist appears
to prefer that stroke which leads the edge according
to the action of cutting, instead of making the back
run first along the stone. This proceeding is very
judicious ; for if there be any lump or particle of stone
or other substance lying upon the face of the grinder,
and the back of the tool be first run over it, it will
proceed beneath the edge and lift it up, at the same
time producing a notch. But on the other hand, if
the edge be made to move foremost and meet such
particle, it will slide beneath it and suffer no injury.
Another condition in whetting is, that the hand should
not bear heavy ; because it is evident, that the same
stone must produce a more uniform edge if the steel be
wore away by many, than by few strokes. It is also
of essential importance that the hone itself should be of
a fine texture, or that its silicious particles should be
very minute.
The grind-stone leaves a ragged edge, which it is
the first effect of whetting to reduce so thin that it may
be bended backwards and forwards. This flexible part
is called the wire, and if the whetting were to be continued
too long it would break off in pieces without
regularity, leaving a finer though still very imperfect
edge, and tending to produce accident while lying on
the face of the stone. The wire is taken off by raising
the face of the knife to an angle of about .00 degrees
vith the surface of the stone, and giving a light stroke
edge foremost alternately towards, each end of the
stone. These strokes produce an edge, tke faces of
which are inclined to each other in an angle of about
10O degrees, and to which the wire is so slightly adherent
that it may often be taken away entire, and is
easily removed by lightly drawing the edge along the
finger nail. The edge thus cleared, is generally very
even : but it is too thick, and must again be reduced by Ӣ
whetting. A finer wire is by tins means produced,
which will require to be again taken off, if for
vant of judgment or delicacy of hand, the artist should
have carried it too far. But we will suppose the obtuse edge to be very even, and the second wire to be scarcely perceptible. In this case the last edge will be very acute, but neither so even nor so strong as to be durably useful. The finish is given by two or more alternate light strokes with the edge slanting foremost, and the blade of the knife raised, so that its plane forms an angle of about 28 degrees with the face of the stone. This is the angle which by careful observation and measurement, I find Mr. Stodart habitually uses for the finest surgeons' instruments, and which he considers as the best for razors, and other keen cutting tools. The angle of edge is therefore about 56 degrees. The ' excellence and uniformity of a fine edge may be ascertained, by its mode of operation when lightly drawn along the surface of the skin, or leather, or any organized soft substance. Lancets are tried by suffering the point to drop gently through a piece of thin soft leather. If the edge be exquisite, it will not only pass with facility, but there will not be the least noise produced, any more than if it had dropped into water. This kind of edge cannot be produced, but by performing the last. two or more strokes on the green hone. The operation of strapping is similar to that of grinding or whetting, and is performed by means of the angular particle of fine crocus, or other material bedded in the face of the strap. It requires, less skill than the operation of setting, and is very apt, from the elasticity of the strap, to enlarge the angle of the edge or round it too much. We shall now, as a conclusion to the article, give an account of a patent granted to Mr. Arnold Wilde of Sheffield, for making all kinds of plane-irons, scythes, sickles, drawing-knives, and other edge-tools from a preparation of cast steel and iron united and incorporated by means of fire. This invention is thus described, " Take a mould of cast iron, or other fit material, of л dimension that will best suit the size of the article intended to be manufactured ; then take a piece of wrought iron and prepare it by heating in the fire and hammering it, or in any other manner, to the size you want ; then fix the iron in the mould, leaving a sufficient vacancy to receive the cast steel in a fluid state. In such a direction as that, when die cast steel is poured into the mould, the iron may be either in the middle or the centre of the cast steel, or on one or both sides of the cast steel, or in such other direction as may best suit the purpose for which the iron and cast steef when incorporated shall be wanted. Then put the crucible .or pot into the furnace or fire till the steel becomes liquid. When you suppose the steel to be nearly in a fluid state, take your piece of iron which you intend to incorporate with the cast steel, put it into the fire and heat it to what is usually called a welding heat ; then take the iron out of the fire, clear it from any scale of dirt, and fix it in the mould in the like direction you had before fitted it ; take care that your steel be now in a fluid state, and immediately on your taking the iron out of the fire, take the crucible or pot containing the melted steel from the furnace or fire, and immediately after the iron thus heated shall be fitted in
the

fi64 DYEING.


the mould pour or turn the fluid steel into the space or
vacancy left in the mould to receive the same, which Ӣ
will incorporate with the iron, and become one eolid
mass or body of cast steel and iron united. To make
all sorts of plane irons, scythes, sickles, drawing knives,
hay knives, and all other kind« of edge tools of cast iron
and steel, united as herein before mentioned, forge,
roll, slit, or tilt in such a way as is proper for any or
either of the articles intended to be manufactured; then
the article may be made in the usual manner, or by
such other mode as a workman may judge most convenient.
To harden Sword-blades.””Sword-blades are to be
made tough, so as not to snap or break in pushing
against any thing capable of resistance ; they must also
be of a keen edge, for which purpose they must all
along the middle be hardened with oil and butter, to
make them tough, and the edges with such things as
shall be prescribed hereafter for hardening edged instalments.
This work requires not a little care 'in the
practice. ' ”¢ ' How to imitate the Damascan Blades.””This may be done to such perfection that they cannot be distinguished from the real Damascan blades. First polish your blade in the best manner, and finish it by rubbing with floor of chalk ; then take chalk mixed with water, and rub it with your ringer well together on your hand ; with this touch the polished blade, and make spots at pleasure, and set them to dry before the sun, or a fire ; then take water in which tartar has been dissolved, and wet your blade all over therewith, and those places that are left clear from chalk will change to. a black colour ; a little after, wash all olí with clear water, and the places where the chalk has been will be bright. Horn the Damascan Blades are hardened.””The Turks take fresh goat's blood, and after they have made their blades red hot, they quench them therein ; this they repeat nine times running, which, it is said, makes their blades so hard as to cut iron.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good info, sir. That aversion to new things is possibly one reason that you do see some Sheffield blades from the 1800's still marked "double shear steel" :wink: You saw that with British gunmakers still offering damascus barrels as an upgrade even when they were using Whitworth "fluid steel" barrels on their basic models. The mechanical superiority of the mono-steel barrels did not really become a factor until the advent of higher pressure smokeless powder ammunition. Add to that the fact that the makers of fine guns probably thought that any goober with a lathe and boring machine could make a mono-steel barrel...lol
 
Well I think we can all agree that top quality, highly polished and finished knives were being turned out from Sheffield during most/all of our target time periods.
I like LaBonte's classification categories. If anyone on this forum sees a particular object, knife, gun, etc they can ask what's the classification and then everyone is on the same page. Please realize a lot/most of my gear would not fit into the top category but that's where I want to be headed and for me at least, if I am going to make some piece of equipment, it might as well be a copy of an original. I may copy it with modern materials but to some extent I guess I can live with it. In any event, for me, I like my gear to be as close to original items as possible, or at least that's my goal. I have made a lot of stuff that I later found out wasn't original and then had to re-make the item. On some items I've done this multiple times as I've learn more.
Regarding some of the stuff one sees at a Rondy. Actually I'm pretty tolerant (I think :) ). No one gave me a hard time when I got started, I ought to return the favor. The issue of PC gear is something that pertains to me, it's important to me what my gear is.
 
REPLICAS: The copying with exact reproduction of all features of an original, including dimensions, size and color of beads, number of stitches, and all other materials, including painting.
MADE AFTER: Closely copying an original with fair selection of its materials or close substitutes, beads and close colors,and layout of the design pattern.
IN THE STYLE: When a piece is made "in Style", it bears all features that belong to this particular cultural region, ethnicity, or time period.
THE ORIGINAL: Any piece created entirely from the imagination of the craftsman, whether two hundred years ago or yesterday and having no exact analog - a complete original while still using appropriate materials, methods, etc.(various genres of the Neo-tribal art movement are a good example as is the "new school" guns being produced today by such craftsmen as the House Brothers.) The quality of craftsmanship is the main measure of the piece. Problems with "in Style" or "Original" pieces only arise if they are mis-labeled as Replicas, Reproductions, or Copies.

Yes, I like this too. The old Colonial Williamsburg/Craft House items used to be classed as "Reproduction," and "Adaptation," although now all their stuff is mostly "Imported" i.e. junque from China.

The originals the repros were based on are called "documents."
 
Crockett, steel grain is like wood, but like flake board wood. The grain shape is more like little ovals, rather than long strings. The grain direction is set when the bar is rolled at the mill. Forging does not change this, and does nothing to improve the strength or structure of steel. The only time forging could add to strength involving grain direction, would be in the case of an extreme curve, and even then the gains are not all that great. . "Packing" is an impossibilty going against common physics, as steel cannot be compressed. Hammering the steel only moves it. Grain direction is only of very minor importance in a common knife blade. The only thing that changes the internal structure of steel, for the good, is heat. Forging completely disrupts the grain structure, and breaks the grains into uneven sizes, which is corrected with heat. The tapers you mentioned can be ground in, and is done every day by stock removal makers, and in most cases should be. The taper down the blade does the same as a taper in a spring. It more evenly distributes the stresses when pressured by side load. All, in all, a forged blade is no better than a stock removal blade. Both are on equal terms, because all the strength, grain structure, grain size, carbon distribution, and internal quality is determined by the heat treat. Not by a hammer.

Twice, I have never understood those with opinions as yours. You say stock removal is not hand made, and I am assuming that you would not carry such a knife. But, you will carry a gun who's barrel was made entirely by machine, and having a lock that was made from castings of modern alloy steels, most often machine trued, and wear period clothing made from cloth in a modern mill. Sorry, I just don't get it.
 
"Twice, I have never understood those with opinions as yours. You say stock removal is not hand made, and I am assuming that you would not carry such a knife. But, you will carry a gun who's barrel was made entirely by machine, and having a lock that was made from castings of modern alloy steels, most often machine trued, and wear period clothing made from cloth in a modern mill. Sorry, I just don't get it. "


Carrying a gun made entirely by machine puts me in the same group as 99.9% of those that own and hunt with guns. Can't be helped...

I have more choices as to what kind/ and how its made as far as knives go ,providing I am the maker..

"I just don't get it. "

Don't feel alone Wick.There are many that don't get it for one reason or another...

Twice.
 
Wick: thanks for the information. A lot of custom makers who forge their blades are always arguing that a forged blade is stronger than one made from the stock removal method. Remember a while back I got some fire bricks to make Wayne Goddard's "One Brick forge"- to try my hand at forging- which didn't work out that well. I wonder if what really makes some of the custom knives "tough" is a good design to the blade and a superior heat treatment- not the forging.

Dave
 
Exactly. Those smiths who make these claims have little knowledge of what they are working with, or what to do with it when the hammer work is done. Fortunately, these types are becoming less, and less, as time goes on, and many smiths today are very knowledgable in metallurgy, and are using ovens, salts, and proven methods of heat treating. What makes a blade tough is how it is heat treated after the shapeing is done, and has nothing at all to do with how it was shaped. Now some steels are tougher than others, but this also depends on what you mean by tough. A pry bar might be considered tough, but a knife tempered like a pry bar would not hold an edge as well as one tempered a bit harder to hold a good edge, for which a little toughness would be sacrificed. The two can be combined somewhat by protecting the hard tempered edge, but softening the spine, and some of the upper portion of the blade with a torch. This can also be done with an edge quench, but a little more strength is achieved with a full quench and temper, then tempering the spine back in a separate proceedure.
 
Back
Top