Patched Ball accuracy @ 100yds

[Melnic]

OK, Im pretty happy with my accuracy from the bench @50 yards, I can get typically about 2" or less group size @50 from the bench. but at 100yards, I was getting 6-8" groups on the same load the first 5 balls. Is this typical? What can tighten this up at 100yards? More experimenting? Do I need to switch to a Maxi Hunter or something? I'm just punching paper @ 50 right now, but I'd like to see how far this Rifle can stretch when hunting.
Its a Lyman GPR in .54cal.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Need to know more about your loads. e.g. pure lead patched round balls? black powder or sub? Size of charge? etc. Some guns simply are not capable of better. And, some shooters do not know how to shoot bench, it is a learned skill. Tell us more.

 

[necchi]

A big part of it is the open iron sights and human eyes.
It's simply difficult to hold open sights to a fine aiming point at 100.
Try using a small dot on the target, a 1" black circle in the center of white paper still shows up quit nicely at 100.
Aim small, Miss small.

 

[BrownBear]

A big part of it is the open iron sights and human eyes.

That's sure been my experience, especially now that my eyes are more geezerly. It gets really tough to sort between minute sighting errors, variations in shooting technique, and load changes.

Little variations don't mean much at 50 yards, but loom large at 100.

I'd experiment to find just the right target for your eyes and sights as a first step.

Second step would be to refine your bench technique- not just the bench setup, but also the details of your shooting including squeeze and follow through.

Get those sorted, and then it's time to refine loads. Without all the preliminaries, any difference in loads will be obscured by sighting errors and shooting errors.

 

[mooman76]

All that and maybe you need a better load. Your load may be good enough for 50y but fall apart some by the time it gets to 100.

 

[Melnic]

All that and maybe you need a better load. Your load may be good enough for 50y but fall apart some by the time it gets to 100.

I think that's the question I'm asking.
I'm doing the Duplex BP & BH209. I can try my all BP load next time.
I'm also curious if what I'm seeing is typical or not.
I've already got a .018" pillow ticking on a .535 ball in a .540 Lyman GPR. It's tight, but not too tight a fit.

BTW, I'm fine with my sights @ 100. I have the Lyman rear Peep.

My bench shooting:
The Lyman GPR has the rear Peep. Really helps.

As far as my bench shooting goes, my Garand, 1903a3 and Enfield Mk4 are pretty much the same setup with a rear peep.
Here is my 1903 @ 50 yards and then again at 100. 3rd is my Garand @ 100 yards.
I know my big groups @ 100 today was not my bench shooting.

 

[nkbj]

Melnic, just out of curiosity, how tough to load is your patch & ball combination?
OK, I know, compared to what scale of toughness? :haha:

Reason for asking is that one of the variables I run into is that patched balls don't always swage into the rifling concentrically and it can show up like poor quality balls. Loading that avoids an induced lack of concentricity can help with accuracy.
What I've come up with is like there's two ways to get around it. (1) easy loading that minimizes the amount of swaging the ball. Or,(2) a real tough loading with lots of ball swaging with ye ol' colonial plastic hammer. That place in between those two seems to give me the most troubles but it really depends upon the rifling geometry. With the GPR some folks like .530 and some like .535.

 

[Melnic]

Melnic, just out of curiosity, how tough to load is your patch & ball combination?
OK, I know, compared to what scale of toughness? :haha:

Reason for asking is that one of the variables I run into is that patched balls don't always swage into the rifling concentrically and it can show up like poor quality balls. Loading that avoids an induced lack of concentricity can help with accuracy.
What I've come up with is like there's two ways to get around it. (1) easy loading that minimizes the amount of swaging the ball. Or,(2) a real tough loading with lots of ball swaging with ye ol' colonial plastic hammer. That place in between those two seems to give me the most troubles but it really depends upon the rifling geometry. With the GPR some folks like .530 and some like .535.

With the short starter, I take my hand and wrap it down onto the starting ball, then same with the long end. If I lean down on it, it is not so easy. My thoughs are that I think I can load tighter, but not much or I'd be struggling. I tried taking a long uncut pillow ticking section and drove the ball about 1" down, then pulled it up. It pulled up easier than I though it would (or should). I'm not seing the pillow ticking mesh marks in the groves like I expected. I'm already using .535 balls so Don't know where to take it from here unless I search around for some thicker patch material. I was expecting the walmart pillow ticking and .535 ball to already be tight.

 

[necchi]

Just try getting rid of that great big bull's eye at 100.
If you want a small group, try shooting at a match book taped to a white sheet of paper at 100.
Your 6-8" groups are average/normal.
Most rifles can shoot better than most people.

If your getting a 2" group at 50, your not going any smaller than 6" at 100.
This is a 5 shot 50yard group that will get me 3" at 100 (that's an 1-1/2" black marker circle);

Those "Shoot-n-see" targets at 100 turn into a yellow blob for me at 100. I never worry about where the shot lands at 100 (aka; need a shoot-n-see) until the 5 shot's have been made. If your shooting properly you will know where the shot lands when it's fired. You don't need to "see" where it is until you walk down there after all shot's have been fired.

 

[Sure Shot 2]

No doubt a 54 cal has the capability of distance. But with a 1-60 twist your GPR is best suited to shoot P-ball. Maybe a increase in powder charge is required for the distance you want. 90-100 gr powder charge of 2-FFG is the typical start point for a hunting recipe and it showing some decent accuracy on 100 yd targets. Just takes some experimentation and a little shoulder bruising on your part to get it to impact there. As far as other than open barrel sights usage during Big Game Hunting Season. You may want to check your State Game Laws. In my State the only other mechanical sight allowed to use is a Peep. All others are taboo.

 

[Melnic]

Thx, I'm using 65-70 so that may be the first change I do is up the charge. My range allows PRB on steel targets @100 yards but only up to 70grains. Was hoping to try that as well. My dad has an 8" gong so I should be able to hit it a few times.

MD allows a scoped inline. My inline is already good to about 2" at 100 but I'd like to use the GPR during the Muzzleloader only season

 

[BrownBear]

...using 65-70 so that may be the first change....

Every rifle is different, but both of my Lyman 54 GPR's really come alive at 100 yards accuracy-wise and trajectory-wise at 90 grains of 3f or 100 grains of 2f. Groups are significantly tighter than with lighter loads that seem just fine at 50. Perhaps not coincidentally, my other makes of 54's like charges in that range too for longer shooting.

My wife's Lyman Deerstalker 54 shoots dandy groups at 50 with 60 grains of 3f, but kinda falls apart at 100. Switching up to 80 grains of 3f tightens groups considerably while also flattening trajectory. I tried sneaking an 80 grain measure into her kit, but she noticed right away and tossed a hissy fit. She's only willing to shoot deer at 50 in any case, so why should she put up with the extra noise and recoil. Of course her language was a bit too colorful for the web! :rotf:

 

[biliff]

Since nobody else mentioned it, at 100 yds the wind can wreak havoc on an otherwise good group. Doesn't take much to drift a round ball at 100 yds. You need to pay attention to even small changes in the breeze.

Not sure why you're duplexing loads with a powder that's only meant for the unmentionable rifles with the unmentionable ignition sources. Seems like an unnecessary complication.

I've been able to get sub 4" 100 yard groups (open sights) on all my rifles with just a little load development. Your rifle shouldn't be any different.

My latest load work up project, .54 cal, 80gr FFFg Goex, drill spit patch, .530 cast ball. 1/2" 50 yd group and a 2 3/4" 100 yard group, 3shots each:

 

[dave524]

Since nobody else mentioned it, at 100 yds the wind can wreak havoc on an otherwise good group. Doesn't take much to drift a round ball at 100 yds. You need to pay attention to even small changes in the breeze.

X2 you can pretty much count a drift on the order of 1 inch per mile an hour with most round balls, doesn't take much variation to open up groups.

 

[galamb]

With a Muzzle Loader and open sights I can't see 100 yards. 50 is far enough.

If I want to "reach out" I have a nice scoped center fire :idunno:

Here is a couple of "good sized" deer at 100 yards scaled to the "naked eye" - now tell me that you can seriously put the front blade on the middle of the 8" "kill zone" without "losing" the front half of the deer (blocked by the blade).

(the yellow circle on the doe is what you need to hit to drop her)

You would need to be "dead center" if your grouping at 100 yards was under 4" to have half a chance at a kill shot (at least one you would recover).

A little twitch and you have a wounded deer.

Before I would even "think" about pulling the trigger at 100 yards I would consistently want sub 2" groups - and shot from more than just a bench (unless you hunt from a bench).

I'm not arguing that it "can't be done", but it's certainly more work than I'm willing to put in - 50 yards is more "my max".

 

[larry wv]

Not trying to argue but I belive your kill zone is way small. Lot's of people kill Deer at 100 yds with iron sights each year. My eyes are not as good as they once were but I would have no problem if the conditions were good. I expect a lot of the younger eyes on this forum would have no problem at all. :v Larry

 

[Melnic]

OK, lets not argue the deer shot. I'll take care of that separately. Lets focus on a shot on a metal gong. I'm learning my ML here and what i can and can't do. Learning what I might be able to do with some more work (which I think I'm getting the answers to here).

My duplex load just happened to be what I had with me today.

No wind this morning @ 9am

 

[hanshi]

My eyes aren't as good as they once were and is probably the reason I can't seem to get a 100 yard group under about 4". The rifle doesn't matter; 4" is the smallest group I can shoot at that range.

I also do better at 100 yards with a large target to aim at. Small targets, while preferred by many, are almost invisible to me.

 

[S.Kenton]

I think a 100Yrd shot is for sure attainable with the proper load. I've shot many deer around that range with a .020 patch, 80 grains of powder and a 530 round ball. I shot my first M'ler buck with that same load last year at 85-90 yards. The buck ran about 60 yards and dropped dead.

 

[S.Kenton]

Your example of a kill zone is waaaayyyy too small...about 2 1/2 times that large is more realistic. With your example of a kill zone.. might as well be shooting at her head....