Patch Questions?

[DarrinG]

Newbie question:

Yesterday while shooting my T/C 50 Hawken I ran into some difficulty. I was shooting .490 ball, 70g Goex FFg, .015 cotton patches pre-lubed from TOW. After about 3 shots I swabbed the barrel with a damp patch. The patch was really nasty. It took several patches damp with rubbing alcohol to get it looking decent again. After 4 more shots, I got a ball stuck about 1/2 way down. Wouldn't budge. I finally had to drive it on home with a mallet. It seemed I was getting excessive fouling, so much that after a few shots I couldn't push the PRB to seat on the powder anymore. I have since ordered a better range rod and some dry patches to use a different lube.

One thing I noticed: The pre-lubed patches were very oily. They were so wet that after handling my fingers were covered in the oil. I cant help but wonder if the excessive oil was leading to the fouling build up in my barrel, causing difficult loading?

It seems cutting the patches at the barrel would be a better method, and applying my own lube. My question is buying patch material at a fabric shop. I can take a micrometer and check the material. Do you check the thickness with it compressed between the jaws of the micrometer or not compressed? I don't want to buy a bunch of material only to find out it's too thick or too thin and it end up being used as oil rags for changing oil in my truck! How damp a patch is too damp, and does it lead to excessive fouling?

Advice welcomed and appreciated!

 

[Tom Compton]

I’ve never used prelubed patches but have seen hundreds of posts negative about them. You can wipe w a damp patch after each shot.

Tight ball/wet patch combo works for me. Wet patch cleans the bore as it’s loaded so only dirty compared to one shot. If a longer time than normal between shots wipe w a damp patch. I use .495 balls and .018”-.024” material (uncompressed) and wet patches either saliva or Hoppes #9 BP at the range and ToW mink oil hunting.

 

[mooman76]

It sounds like too much lube. You might try wicking some of the lube out and swabbing after every shot. Consistency is more important than measuring compressed or not compressed. Measure the patches you are using now and use the same method when you measure other material. You don't need allot of lube when lubing patches. It might be worth buying small amounts of various cloths to see what will work best for you. Then go back and buy a larger amount. Lots of different lubes/recipes for lubes out there. You might want to try a few different ones.

 

[dsayer]

As others have said, it'll take some experimenting to see what works best for your rifle. That's part of the fun!!

I primarily shoot a 54cal Investarms rifle and it favors a larger ball (.535) with a thinner patch (.010). I buy them dry from Track and lube with their mink oil. It works great in all seasons but really shines for cold weather hunting in Nebraska in mid-January.

I find that this combo does an excellent job of swabbing the barrel between shots and I only run a patch through every 8-10 shots without any problems.

 

[azmntman]

order the dutch system today. you'll behappy

 

[dsayer]

order the dutch system today. you'll behappy

Is this to me directly? The OP? Or the board generally? I'm pretty darn happy with my round ball system and don't need to tinker with it now. On the other hand, still working on the REALs...

Is this the system you're talking about though?
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

 

[Rifleman1776]

Several questions in your post. While I do not care for the use of store bought pre-lubed patches, I wouldn't immediately blame them for your fouling problems. Swabbing with a damp, not wet, patch after EVERY shot is recommended by myself and many others. What patch/ball combo will work best for you can only be determined with experimentation (lots of shooting). I suggest you buy a small amount (about 1/8 yard) of both denim and ticking. Wash, lube, cut at muzzle and note your groups. There are lebenty-ten-dozen-hundred lubes available or you can make. Dutch's formula, Moose Snot and/or many others are a good place to start.

 

[azmntman]

order the dutch system today. you'll behappy

Is this to me directly? The OP? Or the board generally? I'm pretty darn happy with my round ball system and don't need to tinker with it now. On the other hand, still working on the REALs...


Not to you to the OP. Yep thats it, TY for adding it. HAPPY EASTER

And I too was happy with my shooting but as Im into accuracy first I ordered it and it works



Is this the system you're talking about though?
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

 

[DarrinG]

Thanks for the replies thus far. Good info.

I recovered several of my patches. The ticking patches are .018. The cotton patches are .015. I can only imagine the ticking .018 patches would have had to had a jackhammer to load after 3-4 shots without swapping.

I have read analyzing your shot patches can tell you taletale signs of what is happening with your load. Suggestions based on the photos?

Ball side:

Powder Side:

 

[azmntman]

They look JUST RIGHT :thumbsup: I would use dry patches with yer own lube though. Try Dutches system or if not GETCHA some Hoppes black powder patch lubricant/solvent. NOT the regular Hoppes solvent

 

[coloradoclyde]

One thing I noticed: The pre-lubed patches were very oily. They were so wet that after handling my fingers were covered in the oil. I cant help but wonder if the excessive oil was leading to the fouling build up in my barrel, causing difficult loading?

Good assessment.

Black powder fouling is not very soluble in oil...It is very soluble in water...
oil or fat based lubes work great for hunting as they offer some corrosion/freeze/drying protection, and when few shots are fired....For repeated range firings, a water based lube works best....
The alternative is to wipe between shots.

 

[DarrinG]

I guess I should have said that I am interested in a hunting load. I'm not into competition shooting or such. I do enjoy shooting here on my own property. I enjoy the aspects of shooting these guns. Whats not to like? It's fun! However, my main concern is an accurate, repeatable accurate, hunting load. Experimenting with all the different lubes and such for target shooting, while enjoyable, is not really my main concern. Not so sure I'd want to load my rifle before dawn and leave it loaded 2 days or more with a patch wet with a solution that will soak into my powder charge and when a deer I have chosen to take walks out, my cap fires and that's all that happens. :cursing: I enjoy experimenting and working up a load for my particular rifle. The journey getting there is half the fun. Can be frustrating at times when one doesn't have a lot of experience and really nobody to get with for sound advice. That's where a forum such as this is a valuable asset. :thumbsup:

 

[dsayer]

order the dutch system today. you'll behappy

Is this to me directly? The OP? Or the board generally? I'm pretty darn happy with my round ball system and don't need to tinker with it now. On the other hand, still working on the REALs...


Not to you to the OP. Yep thats it, TY for adding it. HAPPY EASTER

And I too was happy with my shooting but as Im into accuracy first I ordered it and it works



Is this the system you're talking about though?
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

Happy Easter!

I may have some interest in tinkering some more after I get my elk hunting load figured out for September. Will look into this system more then.

Lots of good advice in this thread.

 

[Dr5x]

dsayer,
Yes, that's my System or methodology that has helped all sorts of people.

It was never intended for people who were satisfied with the shooting they were already doing, like yourself.

Whenever people usually newbies to the Forum profess having trouble or unsolved problems, a chorus ofmy good subscribers routinely suggest getting my System. Bless their hearts, But apparently, in your case, you just don't need itTheir efforts were intended to offer you help and you should take it as just that.

There is a lot of help on the Forum and makes interesting reading..

If you succeed in nailing an Elk, how in hell do you work with that immense animal?
My only thoughts on Elk and Moose was from an old Colorado guide who had welcomed elongated bullets over round ball but experiences he had made him come back to preferring round ball.
I related this opinion to he Forum which pretty much disagreed with it. Let us know how you do after your hunt.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[coloradoclyde]

For hunting, I use a mixture of beeswax and olive oil....
I wipe between shots or at least every other shot. to maintain a consistent loading.

Experimenting is half the fun.... :wink:

 

[SgtMaj65]

I basically use the same set-up you do in my .50 T/C Renegade. A .490 ball, .015 linen or .018 ticking patch. But ... I use TOW mink oil added just before I shoot. You say yours are pre-oiled. That may be something to consider. I shoot a bit lighter loads for target range (60 gr. Goex ffg) and now 55 gr. Olde Eynsford ffg. Your spent patches look fine to me and exactly like mine ”” I have zero complaints target shooting. I only differ in that, for consistency shot to shot, I swab my bore after every shot with my own concoction of 1 part Murphy's Oil Soap, 1 part castor oil and 6 parts 70% rubbing alcohol, followed by a dry patch. I do have a really heavy-duty 3-piece brass range rod now after breaking off my hickory rod into the base of my thumb ramming a ball. I'm not saying the patched round ball loads easily, but I never have had to pound one either. Kind of a balance there. I have a bag of pre-oiled .015 linen patches in my stuff somewhere, I think I'll try them next time out and see if I have similar problems to you. Everything else I've ever shot out of my MLs is strictly TOW mink oil, which works very well. It seems, like everyone else here will attest, that every ML is a little different, and may like different patches, lubes, powders or loads, etc.
Sounds like you are definitely on the right track and just need to tweak something here or there, and see what works for you.

 

[dsayer]

dsayer,
Yes, that's my System or methodology that has helped all sorts of people.

It was never intended for people who were satisfied with the shooting they were already doing, like yourself.

Whenever people usually newbies to the Forum profess having trouble or unsolved problems, a chorus ofmy good subscribers routinely suggest getting my System. Bless their hearts, But apparently, in your case, you just don't need itTheir efforts were intended to offer you help and you should take it as just that.

There is a lot of help on the Forum and makes interesting reading..

If you succeed in nailing an Elk, how in hell do you work with that immense animal?
My only thoughts on Elk and Moose was from an old Colorado guide who had welcomed elongated bullets over round ball but experiences he had made him come back to preferring round ball.
I related this opinion to he Forum which pretty much disagreed with it. Let us know how you do after your hunt.

Dutch Schoultz

Hey Dutch!
I'm new to this forum and am still figuring out some of the logistics. For example, if you reply to the last response in a thread (which makes perfect sense), it says "in response to 'name of last respondee'." This was why I was a bit confused because azmntman replied and it had my name at the top.

You're system seems to have quite the following from what I've seen and may look into myself in the future even though I'm generally happy with my current round ball setup.

RE: dealing with the elk. I've got a group of 6-8 guys that have all agreed to all contribute to deboning and packing out any animal shot by a member of the group. The payoff is that we'll also split any processing costs and the meat. This makes it more manageable, especially for the backcountry hunting we do. Our base camp is about 4.5 miles and 2000ft of gain from the trailhead.

 

[Dr5x]

DarrinG,
You have a bunch of problems.
What kind of groups are getting in spite of all the other problems that have shown up?
I need that for a starting point to begin figuring what to do. Next.
Idle thoughts that first came to mind would suggest you use a .485 ball if possible Your powder is great at 2Æ’Æ’ but you might want to consider 75 grains or a wee tad more.

You have arrived at the wisdom of avoiding precut patches because they tend to go in off center which can throw you off.
The fact that your pre cuts were very oily is probably a great part of your problem with fouling.
In my experiments I have come to the conclusion that minimum lubrication is way better than overwhelming lubrication which acts as a glue to all the manure left after you have fired the rifle, I don't know hat kind of rifle you are shooting but I guess it's a percussion. You might want to consider a Hot Shot nipple from TOW
Your wiping patch should not be so thick that it pushes all the manure into the breech,but big enough so that a loto of excess material folds back over the narrow neck of your jag so that when you withdraw the rod the rod, that excess material with gather up and sweep your bore clean.

Rifleman 1776 was wise in pointing out a quick wipe between shots will prevent a build up of crud on your bore which bakes on shot after shot sso that your barrel is getting smaller and smaller as you shoot which throws everything off balance..
On a post to another post that your rifle has a weak spring and you freed a blow back problem.
Actually that would auto magically clear out you ignition channel after each shot. If you don't have the blow back result, the Hot Shot nipple will allow some of that force to keep the ignition channel clear. Remember when you fire a percussion rifle you have the heavy spring of the lock holding the smashed copper cap over the hole in the niple with some force which would keep the manure in the ignition channel causing misfires, The Hot Shot provides a bypass for thstsquirt to the rear.

To me the secret of accuracy is keeping the barrel in the same condition, shot after shot with no build up of baked on residue changing the effective barrel size.
A patch the right thickness to create a good seal around the ball and a minimum of goo, such as the oil you speak of out of the barrel
To me when you have to use a mallet to seat a ball you are risking its getting stuck on the way and that can be a disaster in the least ruining your barrel at worst hurting yourself.

I don\t know about using alcohol as a cleaner. In a hot barrel that alcohol might evaporate like an old man's dreams. THERE ARE LEVENTY THOUSAND CLEANER. OUT THERE CALLED MOOSE MILK, MOOSE SNOT AND OR SKUNK PISS I HAVEONE WHICH USES WATER SOLUBLE OIL WHICH YOU WONT HAVE SO I SUGGEST YOU GET A RECIPE FROM SOMEONE ELSE ON THAT. THE BIG MISTAKE PEOPLE MAKE IS TO GET THEIR WIPING PATCH WET AS IN POSSIBLY ABLE TO SEND ONE DROP OF EXCESS MOISTURE INTO THE BREECH WHICH WILL WET YOU NEXT POWDER CHARGE GIVING AT BEST A WEAKER BANG ON THE NEXT SHOT AOR AT WORST A COMPLETE MISFIRE..

LET ME KNOW ABOUT YOU TROUBLED GROUP AND MAYBE WE CAN GO FROM THERE.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

 

[Dr5x]

IF YOU DON'T GIVE IT A QUICK WIPE BETWEEN SHOTS YOU ARE SHOOTINGWITH A PROGRESSIVELY SMALLER BERREL AS LAYER AFTER LAYER BAKES ON TO THE BORE.

DUTCH

 

[dsayer]

I guess I should have said that I am interested in a hunting load. I'm not into competition shooting or such. I do enjoy shooting here on my own property. I enjoy the aspects of shooting these guns. Whats not to like? It's fun! However, my main concern is an accurate, repeatable accurate, hunting load. Experimenting with all the different lubes and such for target shooting, while enjoyable, is not really my main concern. Not so sure I'd want to load my rifle before dawn and leave it loaded 2 days or more with a patch wet with a solution that will soak into my powder charge and when a deer I have chosen to take walks out, my cap fires and that's all that happens. :cursing: I enjoy experimenting and working up a load for my particular rifle. The journey getting there is half the fun. Can be frustrating at times when one doesn't have a lot of experience and really nobody to get with for sound advice. That's where a forum such as this is a valuable asset. :thumbsup:

Hey DarrinG,
Couple more things I've learnt...

1) I saved an old #11 CCI cap tin to store my patches. I lube 50 (maybe?) With mink oil and just stack them in the tin. Perfect fit and ready for the range!

2) As regards leaving your rifle loaded, looks like your in NC so the humidity can be your worst enemy. A little moisture in there can make it hard to ignite the powder consistently.

3) Also, avoid big temperature changes like going from outside to a warm house/truck as this can cause condensation and also dampen the powder charge.

4) There's a certain risk to this one so... When I'm hunting in the Colorado backcountry, I leave my nipple on overnight in my tent to seal everything off and then put on a fresh cap in the morning. Depending on where/how you hunt, this method could be both dangerous and illegal though.

5) Usually if I'm hunting in a place where I expect to encounter humidity and/or big temperature swings, I just take a "practice shot" after legal shooting and start with a fresh load in the morning.

Good luck and (in my limited experience) there are lots of helpful and knowledgeable folks on this site.