After the battle of Long Island in 1776, one of the British officers wrote that all of the dead rebel riflemen they found had their shooting bags full of cartridges. They work just fine.
Jay
Jay
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Paper cartridges in a rifled gun?
- Thread starter wishihadgunrights
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Does anyone have the source for this info ref American riflemen having their shot bags full of paper cartridges? It doesn't surprise me of this being done, but this is the first time I've seen anyone pointing it out.
Historically cartridges have been used with flintlock rifles. They were made the same way as if for military muskets, but the lead ball had a greased cloth patch sewn around it.
To load the end of the paper cartridge was torn off. The powder was poured down the barrel, and the greased patched ball was seated on top of the charge.
The rifle was primed by either using a powderhorn or was primed before loading with some black powder from the paper cartridge.
I ran across it when I was working at the Yorktown Victory Center but lost the file in a computer upgrade. Been looking for it since then. I’d be delighted if someone here could point me back to it!
Jay
I highly doubt they were riflemen. I don't recall riflemen being mentioned in accounts of the Battle of Long Island.
Now, regular soldiers and militiamen with muskets? Yeah. They were grossly inexperienced and easily overrun before getting off many shots.
The hills on the left of the American line were covered by the Pennsylvania State Rifle Regiment under Col. Samuel Miles. They lost 209 of their 650 men. In his account of the battle, General Lord Sterling stated “Kichline’s Rifle Men arrived, part of them I placed along a hedge under the front of the Hill, and the rest in front of the wood. The troops opposed to me were two Brigades of four Regiments Each under the command of General Grant; who advanced their light Troops to within 150 yards of our Right front, and took possession of an Orchard there & some hedges… this brought on an Exchange of fire between those troops and Our Rifle Men which Continued for about two hours…”
Kichline’s riflemen were newly raised, green as grass, and went toe to toe with British light bobs for two hours. “Easily overrun before getting off many shots”? Codswallop.
Jay
I've shot paper cartridges through a flint rifle many times, with reasonable success. The powder was loaded in a separate "inner" cartridge, to prevent grease from the patch ruining the powder, and the patched ball wrapped in an outer cartridge with the inner cartridge below the ball. The greased patch was thinner than usual, with the paper taking up the extra space in the bore. You might need a smaller ball, thinner patch, or both to make it work effectively. The base of the paper was torn off, both the inner and outer cartridge. Powder dropped into the bore, and the remaining tail of the paper torn off about a finger width below the patched ball.
As an alternative, the patch/ball of the correct thickness and diameter can be removed from the paper and loaded as normal. The patch can be sewn, just enough, gotta experiment to see how much is needed, using thin thread and only enough stitching to hold the patch around the ball until loaded.
Ferguson rifles shoot bare ball with no patch, British m76 rifles were used with both patched ball (linen patch) or rolled cartridges using a paper patch. Yes the linen patch was more accurate, rolled cartridge quicker to load. Rolled cartridges were used in times of front line combat. Patched balls were used in skirmishing when things were not so up front and personal. US Burton ball (minie) did not use paper around the minie. The bullet was removed from the cartridge prior to loading. English Prichet cartridges were loaded with the paper around the bullet. So I would guess that rifle men used some type of cartridge when loading even if it was only filled with powder of had a patched ball in the cartridge that was removed prior to loading.
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
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No danger involved.
Accuracy will suck.
I would only put powder in the paper tubes, and make a loading block to hold patched ball’s separately.
Tear open the powder tube, dump powder in barrel. Discard paper. Ram ball and patch from loading block down barrel.
Use a ball/patch combination that loads fairly certain easily if you want speed.
BJHabermehl
40 Cal
I’ve also used and promoted this system of prompt reloading. I use paper tubes made from post it papers. For powder. And a bullet board or block. And a short starter. After loading my first ball I leave the starter in the hole in the block, putting it in my shot bag peg up. When I need to reload the block,starter and paper powder cartridges comes out of the bag in one handful. Tear off one end of the powder cartridge pour powder, and start the next ball. Ram and prime or cap. With practice this is easily achieved in under a minute. BJH
smoothshooter
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Your method should work okay.
I quit using any patch and ball combination that required the use of a short starter years ago, as I always got more than enough accuracy for hunting and most target shooting with a slightly looser combination.
A side benefit of a looser load, is if I ever need or want to pull a load it is MUCH easier to do if things are not so tight.
This is something few shooters ever give a thought to until they twist the threaded rod end off the ramrod because the brass end was not cross-pinned to the rod end.
Last edited:
Mgbruch
40 Cal
So... I'm going to ask. Why?
I've been shooting, and hunting with, muzzle-loaders for 48 years; and I've never felt the desire to have a bunch of rounds ready for rapid reloading. In my mind they're single shot guns. Right? A good load, and practice, ensures that your one shot will do it's job. If you miss a shot on a game animal, it's not going to be there for a second shot, regardless of the decrease in loading time.
In situations where rapid fire is essential, I might choose semi-automatic cartridge rifle. Developments like paper cartridges and the Ferguson rifle were made to gain an advantage in combat. Not target shooting or hunting.
If ever I felt the need for more rapid loading, I'd probably use paper wrapped charges and a loading block. However, familiarity with your arm and equipment, and a good loading process, would only make a difference of a few seconds... which isn't going to make any kind of difference in practical situations.
Nothing pays off like practice with a good, accurate load. I imagine a lot of you out there can reload faster than I. And I'm quite certain that many of you are better shots than me. But I know my arms and my limitations. I've taken five deer with my flintlocks, and all of them went down with one shot.
My two cents.
I've been shooting, and hunting with, muzzle-loaders for 48 years; and I've never felt the desire to have a bunch of rounds ready for rapid reloading. In my mind they're single shot guns. Right? A good load, and practice, ensures that your one shot will do it's job. If you miss a shot on a game animal, it's not going to be there for a second shot, regardless of the decrease in loading time.
In situations where rapid fire is essential, I might choose semi-automatic cartridge rifle. Developments like paper cartridges and the Ferguson rifle were made to gain an advantage in combat. Not target shooting or hunting.
If ever I felt the need for more rapid loading, I'd probably use paper wrapped charges and a loading block. However, familiarity with your arm and equipment, and a good loading process, would only make a difference of a few seconds... which isn't going to make any kind of difference in practical situations.
Nothing pays off like practice with a good, accurate load. I imagine a lot of you out there can reload faster than I. And I'm quite certain that many of you are better shots than me. But I know my arms and my limitations. I've taken five deer with my flintlocks, and all of them went down with one shot.
My two cents.
BJHabermehl
40 Cal
One of the reasons I worked out my system is: No matter how careful you are about making a really good first shot sooner or later you won’t. Plus we have a timed second shot on a target on our woods walk. Well, I guess two reasons. BJH
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The fifty caliber Deerhunter has 48" twist rifling and that combination has been well demonstrated to work with hollow based bullets. The various available fifty caliber molds should be adaptable to sizing down and making paper cartridges that work in .50 caliber the same as .577 caliber were used in Enfield's in the mid-1800's. It's just a reduction in scale. If the resources happened to be available to you then an old second hand .445 diameter minie mold* machined out to be a smooth sided hollow base for paper patching could be the cat's meow.
*Such as the Lyman #445599 or #445369, or the Ohaus / RCBS #45-280.
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That's a HUGE rifle by any standards!
Walks with fire
54 Cal.
Why not just use a speed loader tube ?
BJHabermehl
40 Cal
Because I prefer to use materials available in the period of use, thus ruling out plastic tubes. Of course wooden apostles, or river cane tubes could be used. Really in period they would have used a horn, there’s overwhelming evidence of that. The context of the paper cartridges I describe is for a day hunter, or target match. Our club trys to discourage the use of plastics as a matter of common agreement. Not policy. BJH
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No reason it couldn't be done the same way as was by the British standard practices for their military .577 ammo.
Psycho Mike
Free Cdn
My 'Bess was a smooth bore, so the accuracy wasn't great anyway and it worked fine as a charge tube and then "patch" for the round ball. For a rifle, I'd assume the accuracy will suffer a fair bit and I don't know about any long term ill effects.
Might be easier to use it as a charge tube and have a lubed, patched round ball in there. Paper holds it all together and makes it quicker, but doesn't go down the bore.
Might be easier to use it as a charge tube and have a lubed, patched round ball in there. Paper holds it all together and makes it quicker, but doesn't go down the bore.
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only danger i can think of in the above proposed process is fire hazard during the dry season. i even pucker up when i find a smoldering patch.
when hunting i have a couple of those double ended snap off capped tubes. Dan'l Boone would have used them too if he had invented plastic.
just had a brain storm! TDM sent me some cane joints from the swampland and i have been trying to figure out a use!
when hunting i have a couple of those double ended snap off capped tubes. Dan'l Boone would have used them too if he had invented plastic.
just had a brain storm! TDM sent me some cane joints from the swampland and i have been trying to figure out a use!
