Original Gibbs-Metford, with issues......

[N8Gunner]

I wonder if N8 would get a chance to shoot it if a couple of rascals like us showed up at his range? What do you say N8gunner?

Come on over to Washington's Olympic Peninsula..... We can shoot at the private range I shoot at !

 

[Bad Karma]

I do a significant amount of business with Travis Pattern out in Spokane. Perhaps I need to arrange a factory tour?

 

[GREENSWLDE]

To save further confusion. What is the number engraved on the trigger guard tang and the number after Metfords Patent in the panel on the barrel in front of the Breach plug.??

 

[Metalshaper]

mono bloc is a common way to manufacture shotgun barrels for modern guns. The breech area is made to fit the frame and the pivot and then is bored through. The barrel is turned to be a soldered fit.. or in some cases a threaded fit. The barrel is fit and secured. then the finish work can be completed.

on this gun I assume the 'smith' cut the original barrel off behind the bulge. The barrel was unbreached and the bored to a open up its interior.
a replacement barrel was then fit in,soldered and breached, and then fit back into the stock and the break off.

 

[N8Gunner]

To save further confusion. What is the number engraved on the trigger guard tang and the number after Metfords Patent in the panel on the barrel in front of the Breach plug.??

Barrel number is 234. I see no number at the trigger guard

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Barrel number is 234. I see no number at the trigger guard

Thanks for the Number on the barrel but surprised No Number on the Guard?? Is there a makers name on the inside of the Lock. May be hidden by the main spring.

 

[ResearchPress]

Thanks for the Number on the barrel but surprised No Number on the Guard?? Is there a makers name on the inside of the Lock. May be hidden by the main spring.

I asked about the lock too and am hoping we can see photos. As noted above, I have reference to three different makers used for Gibbs-Metford locks of this time.

Insofar as I know Gibbs did not number all rifles, only ’best’ ones, hence no number on the guard.

David

 

[N8Gunner]

Am off work now till Friday, will try to pull the lock and post some pics in the next few days

 

[GREENSWLDE]

I asked about the lock too and am hoping we can see photos. As noted above, I have reference to three different makers used for Gibbs-Metford locks of this time.

Insofar as I know Gibbs did not number all rifles, only ’best’ ones, hence no number on the guard.

David

From the pin pattern it appears to be a Brazier 4 pin Horse shoe bridle. For your Metford records, I was loaned No.6647 in the late 80's to use as the slave for My replica. That rifle was covered in Best London style engraving. It may have been re-barreled by Rex.. later.

 

[52Bore]

Great piece.
In your 1st post, the last photo shows the sleeve joint. The mono-block is only the original breech end of the barrel. As metalshaoer stated, the original barrel was cut off and new attached. I have done this to an original 360BPE.
As David stated, the trigger bow pistol grip is unusual- make me think of a sporting rifle rather than a Target. A photo of the top tang may be a telling sign. Also, the diameter of barrel at beech end.
Also, the forend tip/horn looks cow horn as is on my Alex Henry- us there evidence of a ramrod provision within the stock?
Regardless, it’s a rare and quantity piece.
Congrats.

 

[N8Gunner]

Update..... : With other black powder guns that have caught my fancy, mainly BPCR, I have lost enthusiasm for this Gibbs , and am considering selling it , or trading it off, as I do not want it to become a "wall hanger" or stay stuck in my safe , taking up space,
I have not fired it.
When I post it for sale -or- trade in the classified section of the forums , I am seriously considering putting the money price on it the same as what Pedersoli Gibbs rifle seem to go for.
Or my trade interests are all things English made Snider -or- U.S. Springfield ( muskets also Trapdoor) -or English Enfield muskets particularly original or Parker Hale.

So I shall put this humble question out here.
What is this thing worth ?
Am I wrong to think this would bring money on par with a repro Pedersoli Gibbs ?

 

[Rudyard]

I am not familiar with the Petersoli Gibbs but the original ones are highly prized there is no contest if the bore is good it is a definite' horse for a course' & a thourerbread at that .The rifleing should be 461 shallow grouve one in 20" or thereabouts . all amatter of taste its your rifle It seems to me your thinking to trade a Rolles Royce for a Voltswaggon.
Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Looking down the muzzle the rifling seem wrong, too sharp grouves for Metford what you might have is a ' relined by another' but at least the stock is nice & the current barrel probably shoots fine I have no idea what the Petersoli Gibbs is like. I remember the Spanish one rather lightweight affairs but never owned one. I did own a Sharp'es Borchart in 461 number one Gibbs it being a Creedmore ? bring back rebarreled by Gibbs but this is straying of MLs . I tried to shoot a match on Century Range Bisley but it was a cold day & the Vasaline froze enough to prevent the striker firing the primer hard enough !. worked fine when warm but no joy that day .Never had That trouble with my ML 451 even at 46f below in the shade (Not so much' shade' ! but wind chill) But this was in Northern BC in a quarry Near Mackenzie one Sunday off I was determined to shoot but only got of 8 shots before I could no longer grasp the stock or handle caps . Still got the target. A friends near by car soon cured the chills .Slight digression seemed linked .
Rudyard

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Looks like a re-barrel job. Used to be a chap in Switzerland who could rifle Metford rifling. He did me a super job but that was about 35 years ago. Don't know if he is still around. David may know.. O.D..

 

[ResearchPress]

Used to be a chap in Switzerland who could rifle Metford rifling.

That’ll be Ueli Eichelberger. Still working and shooting as far as I know.

David

 

[GREENSWLDE]

That’ll be Ueli Eichelberger. Still working and shooting as far as I know.

David

Thanks David. Mine is one of Ueli's barrels but I didn't want to name in case he was no longer with us. His 5 groove rifling matches the original as far as I can measure after slugging several times. Shot much better than I can to 900 mtrs (984yds) and good at 100yds(mtrs).. OLD DOG..

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Thanks David. Good to know he may well still be around. Met him many times over the years WHEN I was able to shoot with the MLAGB. Mine is one of Ueli's barrels but I didn't want to name in case he was no longer with us. His 5 groove rifling matches the original as far as I can measure after slugging several times. Shot much better than I can to 900 mtrs (984yds) and good at 110yds.. OLD DOG..

 

[M. De Land]

I would check the bore with pin gauge to make sure there is no diameter change at the repair and then also slug it with a poured lap slug to insure the grooves are not stepped as well. The only professional and safe repair I know of when a barrel is bulged is to to reline it after the bulge is swaged back or cut out and the barrel rejoined ! If done correctly and sweated in, then peening the muzzle seem between the liner and parent barrel, makes it very hard to tell it was lined.
I've seen some folks weld the crown when liners are used but I believe this is bad practice as the crown will then have dissimilar metal heat treat properties usually winding up much harder and potentially scaled and or wharped.
I'm aware of monoblock work as that is how many shot guns are built with the chamber area of a barrel sweated onto the barrel proper using a oounterbore profile. This would leave a seem mid bore. My guess is the bulge was cut out and the two sections of barrel sweated back together in a counterbore , indexing back up with the original lands and grooves.

 

[M. De Land]

I'd also be very surprised if the joint is threaded together as a male/female counterbore would be ever so much easier to index to the cut off barrel rifling via a poured slug pushed between the halves. This method would perfectly align lands and grooves to be clamped in index together, the alignment slug removed then sweating the joint.
The other thing is with a barrel swage and liner it would retain it's original length and have no joint line.