No muzzleloading pepperbox reproductions?

[user 56333]

The Republic of Ireland, as I've mentioned here a number of times, while having draconian and archaic gun laws that are open to interpretation by anybody who may at one time has seen a gun, in spite of clear delineations as to what is and what is not legal - is a 'nope, ain't never goin' to happen' for us muzzleloaders. With the 1888 Explosives Act STILL on the stature books, and STILL enforceable to the extent that there is no mention in it of ANY other propellant other than black powder, and with the Prevention of Terrorism Act still being used with a heavy hand to ensure that less than fifty people in the country are allowed to reload, under the most rigorous strictures, we will never see even the return of blank-firing musket-using re-enactors.

Yup, that pretty much sums it up. Outdated and unclear laws, mixed with a police establishment that doesn't really know anything about older firearms, has effectively made muzzle-loading of any kind a complete no-go in the Republic of Ireland. Heck, the Irish police hardly know their way around modern firearms either. I still recall that story about the Dublin armed response unit that lost a machinegun out the trunk of their car because they hadn't stowed it properly. Some good-hearted member of the public had to hand it back in to them

Darn shame that's the way it is, especially when there's guys happily banging away with smoke-poles just over the northern border.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

They are around, as my brother just picked up an unbuilt kit in the original box for only $50 at this past weekend's Winter MZL snowshoe biathlon in southern VT.

 

[TFoley]

Amazing! Didn't know anyone actually shot these nowadays!

When you can have them for practically nothing, and need no paperwork of any kind to 'allow' you to shoot them, and some states don't even call them a firearm anyhow, why not shoot them? That's what they are intended for.

 

[TFoley]

Yup, that pretty much sums it up. Outdated and unclear laws, mixed with a police establishment that doesn't really know anything about firearms, has effectively made muzzle-loading of any kind a complete no-go in the Republic of Ireland.

FIFY.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I suppose that many ARE available, but have you seen the prices lately? You used to be able to get one in shootable condition for twenty-five dollars. Now they all seem to be right around a thousand if not more.

 

[TFoley]

Loads of 'em here on mainland UK for around $300 up for a manually-rotated version.......

My pal Ken bought a beautiful 'rotator' in its case, with all the bits and pieces, including a mould that he used to make the .41cal balls, for around $1200. I'd like to say that he was the first to fire it, but I'd likely be wrong, but it sure looked like he was.

 

[user 56333]

Seems all the reproductions mentioned so far are manually-rotated pieces. Any that have the original double-action, automatic rotation?

 

[Rudyard]

I think Pepperboxes are a bit like Bulldog revolvers rather unseen in old photoes while carried in pockets. I bought a Birmingham made Pepperbox in Perth West Australia It had the nipples soldered up . I had some 38 wad cutter bullets so cut them in half to shoot . on weekends away from Dampier camp a Roo once presented I fired the three loaded & not one hit .Now Ime glad non did . They are hardly target pistols but up close & fast and that was where they best served .along with the intriguing Transitional revolvers These sorts of pistols where a common goldfield claim defense on the 1851 Opher diggings & all the following finds in Australia .along with cheap & ugly single shot percussion 'Miners' pistols. apparently fired off about sundown to ensure they where fresh loaded and to loudly proclaim ' Keep off.'.
Regards Rudyard

 

[oreclan]

My uncle gave me this one

I also have this in unfired condition.

 

[hawkeye2]

Seems all the reproductions mentioned so far are manually-rotated pieces. Any that have the original double-action, automatic rotation?

The Gold Rush .22 and the Hoppe's that I posted about do. That's 2 of the three repros mentioned here.

 

[user 56333]

These sorts of pistols where a common goldfield claim defense on the 1851 Opher diggings & all the following finds in Australia .along with cheap & ugly single shot percussion 'Miners' pistols. apparently fired off about sundown to ensure they where fresh loaded and to loudly proclaim ' Keep off.'.

Interesting. The pepperboxes (especially those by Ethan Allen) saw similar popularity with miners/prospectors in America during the California Gold Rush. Seems gold rushes and pepperboxes just go together like bread and cheese.

The Gold Rush .22 and the Hoppe's that I posted about do. That's 2 of the three repros mentioned here.

My mistake I thought someone here had said they owned one of those Hoppe's ones that required manual rotation...

 

[TFoley]

Modern handguns (including modern reproductions of historical muzzle-loaders) need a gun license and are restricted to anything with five or less shots, and frankly getting a license for any handgun above .22 LR ... good luck! As for original antiques, the definition of antique is "pre-unitary cartridge", meaning that only original guns which were meant to be loaded with separate bullet, powder, and primer are considered "antique". They don't technically require a gun license, but they do require a letter of permission to own from your local police superintendent, as well as a firearms import license if you're trying to bring one in from overseas. And depending on the superintendent in question, even the original antique may be required to be "deacitvated" before he'll give you a permission letter for it.

Additionally, black powder (and any substitutes like pyrodex) are treated as controlled explosives, which means you need a special explosives license to own even a powder-horns worth of BP, pyrodex, etc.

There's a reason why there's no Irish equivalent to the MLAGB

Reading your first line again, can you explain for the readers here how you can buy a modern reproduction of a historical muzzleloader in the RoI? Given that only .22 cal handguns can be licensed, and you can't buy BP or subs. TMK there are no .22cal historic BP handguns. Perhaps I've overlooked something over the years.

 

[hrt4me]

I posted this 2 months ago:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/samuel-clemens.154324/

 

[Stantheman86]

Reproduction Percussion revolvers exist today mainly because of the 1962 Civil War Centennial, and Spaghetti Westerns

There was never a large enough demand for anyone to tool up and make any high quality double action Pepperboxes

Pietta didn't even bother to keep making the Double Action Starr, because there wasn't a lot of demand for them.

 

[user 56333]

Reading your first line again, can you explain for the readers here how you can buy a modern reproduction of a historical muzzleloader in the RoI? Given that only .22 cal handguns can be licensed, and you can't buy BP or subs. TMK there are no .22cal historic BP handguns. Perhaps I've overlooked something over the years.

You really can't, I was just pointing out that (unlike in some countries) modern reproductions of muzzle-loaders are considered "modern" firearms in Ireland and thus require a gun license.

I guess technically you might be able to get a reproduction of some sort of smoothbore musket in Ireland on a regular shotgun license, but with the regulations around bp and substitutes you'd basically be unable to ever shoot it.

Another problem (for long-guns) is that, in Ireland, standard gun licenses for rifled firearms are limited to anything of 7.62 or lower caliber. Anything bigger than that requires a special "restricted" license, which is a headache and a half to get. Now, being Ireland, the local police don't understand the difference between a modern .50 caliber gun and a .50 caliber blackpowder rifle, so both would require a "restricted license" despite the obvious difference in ballistics and such.

 

[TFoley]

You really can't, I was just pointing out that (unlike in some countries) modern reproductions of muzzle-loaders are considered "modern" firearms in Ireland and thus require a gun license.

I guess technically you might be able to get a reproduction of some sort of smoothbore musket in Ireland on a regular shotgun license, but with the regulations around bp and substitutes you'd basically be unable to ever shoot it.

Another problem (for long-guns) is that, in Ireland, standard gun licenses for rifled firearms are limited to anything of 7.62 or lower caliber. Anything bigger than that requires a special "restricted" license, which is a headache and a half to get. Now, being Ireland, the local police don't understand the difference between a modern .50 caliber gun and a .50 caliber blackpowder rifle, so both would require a "restricted license" despite the obvious difference in ballistics and such.

I had this long and utterly pointless with a police super in Dublin a few years back at a police equipment trade fair I was attending as a consultant on thermal imaging. Trying to tell him that a .44-40 cartridge fired from an old-style underlever 'cowboy' rifle had less than a quarter of the muzzle energy of a .308 seemed to be beyond his comprehension. He actually told me, knowing that I was a keen shooter of everything that went bang or boom, that I was lucky not to live in the RoI. It was his ambition, if he ever became commissioner of AGS, to ban every firearm in the state that was not required by a farmer for animal or crop protection.....

If you ever come over to the part of UK in which I live, I'd be very pleased to give you a day's shooting of almost everything you could imagine. Think about it.

Anyhow, back to the pepperbox, with apologies.

 

[John May]

I had this long and utterly pointless with a police super in Dublin a few years back at a police equipment trade fair I was attending as a consultant on thermal imaging. Trying to tell him that a .44-40 cartridge fired from an old-style underlever 'cowboy' rifle had less than a quarter of the muzzle energy of a .308 seemed to be beyond his comprehension. He actually told me, knowing that I was a keen shooter of everything that went bang or boom, that I was lucky not to live in the RoI. It was his ambition, if he ever became commissioner of AGS, to ban every firearm in the state that was not required by a farmer for animal or crop protection.....

If you ever come over to the part of UK in which I live, I'd be very pleased to give you a day's shooting of almost everything you could imagine. Think about it.

Anyhow, back to the pepperbox, with apologies.

Again I digress from the original post but we have a senior FLO (Firearms Licence Officer) here in Thames Valley who thinks along those very lines, all guns must be banned, period!

 

[TFoley]

Again I digress from the original post but we have a senior FLO (Firearms Licence Officer) here in Thames Valley who thinks along those very lines, all guns must be banned, period!

He needs to be reminded that -

1. He is a public SERVANT.

2. He is required to exercise the wishes of the county Chief Constable, who is OBLIGED, in Law, to grant an FAC to a proven law-abiding citizen within his county remit. The wording is quite clear - about as verbatim as I can recall - 'acting on behalf of the Home Secretary, the Chief Constable, having assured himself of the law-abiding conduct of the applicant, and having carried out ALL the investigative processes necessary, SHALL grant the applicant a Firearms Certificate.'

3. Your FEO is acting outside his terms of reference and exceeding his authority by a very wide margin.

4. When a gentleman of a similar mindset hereabouts was investigated, after it was proven that he had been using a couple of members of a local gun club and encouraging them to snitch on the fellow club members, he was fired almost instantly.

 

[TFoley]

Photos of Ken's lovely pepperbox -

 

[TFoley]

and the box and oil bottle -