Need help picking a first rifle

[Johnny Tremain]

I'm currently looking for my first FLINTLOCK rifle.

Loaded Question.
Quality is the key word.
Then I would suggest a Kibler, learn from the bottom up.
Quality and knowledge all in one box.

 

[Daryl Crawford]

Some of the advice here is like drinking from a fire hose.

 

[loflyr55]

@Daryl Crawford makes some very good suggestions. @chiphasnoteeth I didn't realize how deep is your quandary until I read your post above.

The reason it's hard to find BP for sale is because of the strict storage requirements due to it's explosive nature. The subs get around that.

All of your questions and uncertainty can be solved by presenting yourself to a ml club. It may seem like there is none near you but they appeal to a very small community within the community and are not easily noticed. Find one and make contact. At my club members will be elbowing others out of the way to be the one to help. I find that to be the way of ml people all across the country.

I see that you are in Virginia. If you start another topic specifically appealing for help finding shooters or clubs in your general area some help will probably appear.

If you live anywhere Winchester Virginia, look up the north south skirmishes association..they are a huge ml organization with knowledge that spans alll walks of ml but mostly focuses on civil war weapons. Also back creek settlers at the exit of fort Shenandoah sells black powder during the national events in spring and fall. Go to n-ssa.org website, find a team near you and join them, you will learn a ton.

 

[Grenadier1758]

First of all, thank you for the responses; you all have been super helpful. I have taken a basic gun safety course (Not a hunter safety course though) and I believe to be competent in that realm. Unfortunately, there are no muzzleloading clubs near me, so that is not an option - I will likely have to be self-taught (with internet assistance of course). After reading the replies, I do have some more questions though.
-If Pyrodex and other substitutes don't work in flintlock rifles, what should I use? Or rather, where do I find black powder to buy? I’ve been looking, and I don’t really know where to find authentic black powder. From what I’ve heard as well, lots of shops don’t like carrying black powder, which is an added layer of complexity.
-Are there better first rifles out there? Perhaps better ones that wouldn’t cost me upwards of ~800? Or is it better to blow 1k on a good rifle? Also, I would like to get a flintlock because I’ve seen the difficulty of finding percussion caps, and I’d rather steer clear of that issue. I also don’t know where to find flints though. Is it worth just getting a percussion rifle and dealing with the lack of cap abundance, or should I get a flintlock and try to work around the inherent quirks?
-@Grenadier1758 mentions polishinfor g locks; to put it bluntly, I don’t know what that means or entails in the slightest. Also, What does getting “the flint lock tuned up” mean?
-Where should I look for a rifle and how much should I expect to spend for a real reliable one? So far I’ve been told to look in pawn shops, estate sales, and seemingly, the forum shop? I don’t know what to expect on there, but it sounds like a good option. @morehops52 When you say a “Hawken” rifle, is that just a type of rifle?
-@azmntman says that reliability issues in the rifle I mentioned. are lock geometry and frizzen hardness. Once again, I don’t know what that means. Ideally, I would like to use a flint lock rifle as opposed to a cap lock one, but if there are inherent flaws that make it worse than finding caps, I could reconsider.

P.S. The teeth jokes are great, but Chip is a horse I rode at a competition recently, and he has no teeth.

When starting out, one should be well aware that ordering powder online will be quite expensive. That is one of the reasons we strongly recommend finding a traditional club. They will help you out with an initial supply of powder as well as access to a range to fire the rifle. There are some users who claim that the Triple 7 brand of substitute powder will function in a flint lock. Others claim it is unreliable at best. None will be as reliable as Schuetzen black powder or GOEX black powder. Use 3Fg granulation powders at first as they will work for the pan charge and the main charge. Hopefully, the Back Creek Gun Shop in Winchester, VA (540-888-3349 Back Creek Gun Shop, Winchester Va - Black Powder & Musket Caps - Goex, Swiss, & Schuetzen black powder, musket & pistol caps, lube, patches. N-SSA) is close enough for a visit. They have powder and supplies to get you started. Call before you go to be sure the store is open. They would certainly be able to help you find a club or someone to get you started.

I did mention polishing the lock. A good description of how to polish a lock is in Eric Bye's book, "Flintlocks - A Practical Guide to Their Use and Appreciation" can be purchased through the NMLRA (Flintlocks – A Practical Guide for Their Use and Appreciation — The NMLRA). You will need a few special tools to take a lock apart such as a mainspring compressor, a set of gunsmith screwdrivers and some polishing grade stones or very fine emery cloth paper. You will find that Track of the Wolf and a few other vendors will be contacted often (Track of the Wolf - Muzzle Loading & Black Powder Guns Kits, Parts, Accoutrements, Rendezvous Gear & Primitive Americana). Look at the vendors and suppliers featured on this site. Tuning a flint lock is an overall simplified term used to cover all the aspects of polishing the movable parts, flattening the parts that need to have clearance and fit to other parts, adjusting the spring tension of the main spring, the frizzen spring and the sear spring for optimal balance and reliability. The hammer and frizzen may have to be bent to achieve the optimal geometry of the lock to produce sparks that fall into the pan to ignite the powder that produces heat that is directed through the touch hole to the main charge. Parts such as the frizzen, tumbler. trigger levers may have to hardened and tempered to produce the maximum number of sparks to be scraped from the frizzen and directed into the pan. Spending money to have experts such as Brad Emig of Cabin Creek is well worth it to have a reliable lock. The lock is what makes a flintlock either a true joy or one of the most frustrating devices known to humanity.

Then of course there is the learning about the flint, getting the right size for the lock and keeping a sharp edge to scrape those red hot shards of steel off the frizzen.

Getting good results out a flint lock is a challenge. It can be done. As @Daryl Crawford warns, the information presented will be an awful lot and hard to follow, @loflyr55 offers a good suggestion. The Back Creek Gun Shop is on the edge of the NSSA range in Winchester, VA. Hopefully members on the forum like @VA Hawken or @dave951 will respond with some helpful advice.

 

[dave951]

As the title suggests, I'm currently looking for my first FLINTLOCK rifle. Specifically flintlock, I don't think percussion rifles would appeal to me, but perhaps I'm wrong. Anyhow, I've been browsing around the Muzzle-Loaders.com website, and I really like the Traditions Hawken Woodsman. I watched a couple review videos on YouTube and it seems like a solid first choice, but I'm absolutely not an expert. I have done research on muzzleloaders, and I think I understand how to maintain and operate a muzzleloader SAFELY. I also have adequate range space in my home with a backdrop and targets, and that seems like a good bit of fun but I might dabble in deerhunting eventually, so I would like to know if that rifle fits my needs. Additionally, is this a relatively safe thing to do? As in, will this gun blow up in my face while using proper charges (70-80gr 2F), fully seated ball, tight screws, etc.? I'm just a kid, at fourteen years of age and that's one of my mother's big, if not the biggest concern; if it's not safe, I can't have it. I have also done research on the laws in my state, and from what I understand, I, a minor, am not allowed to purchase powder or a rifle, but an adult (my mother) is, and I, a minor, am allowed to possess an antique firearm without license on private property. I've talked to my mother about it; she will agree to purchase these things under her name (with the money I've been saving for ages) so that I can use them. Just a question of logistics, I suppose.
Thanks!

A couple comments here-
Traditions is a decent, entry level arm and will be fine to start with. Don't get caught up in the "more powder" mania. You're much better served by learning how to shoot the rifle accurately. You also should make the acquaintance of a local black powder club. And since you're young, don't ever start using the Pyrodex stuff if you like your gun.

You mentioned flintlocks, but you really should look into the N-SSA since you're in VA. Several on this board are members and we shoot Civil War era arms in competition, including artillery and if you visit Back Creek for powder, you may as well visit Ft Shenandoah, our main range where we hold Nationals since Back Creek is located at the exit from the property.

Muzzleloading is great fun whether you choose flint or percussion or just do like most of us, shoot both.

And a parting comment, be very, very careful who you listen to or watch on Utoob. There is a bunch of misinformation and borderline stuff there. One absolutely solid Utoober is on this forum- Black Powder Maniac @B P Maniac Shooter He has a great Utoob channel and is a true example of a Southern Gentleman.

 

[oncewas]

Boy oh boy. You got so much advice I don't think there is anything to add. I would very seriously consider the advice from 54ball post #39 very solid. ?I understand wanting a flintlock I was there also but it was my third muzzleloader. So I waited and bought a Kibler SMR. Great rifle but I would get a Woodsrunner if possible. But we are now talking $1100 to $1330 or more. Well worth the money but more that you should spend on your first one, I would strongly recommend going with a percussion for your first muzzleloader. It's just way easier to learn on and you don't have to worry about the lock. Caps are out there you just need to search. I buy all my powder and caps and flints online. All my kits also.
You need to do what you think is best for you. A lot of great advice here from a lot of people with way more knowledge than me. I've only been shooting black powder for a little over a year but I would recommend starting with a percussion gun as your first blackpowder gun. Good luck and keep your powder dry.

 

[longcruise]

And a parting comment, be very, very careful who you listen to or watch on Utoob. There is a bunch of misinformation and borderline stuff there.

This is excellent advice

 

[ZUG]

WOW - a LOT of good advice here. I will "throw my hat" into the mix. For anyone just starting out in muzzle loading guns I STRONGLY suggest that you start off with a percussion rifle. This will eliminate all the idiosyncrasies associated with a flintlock gun and allow you to build on the skills needed to load, shoot, and care for the gun. This will help your mother feel better with allowing you to have and shoot your rifle. You do remember she is the one giving you permission to have it in the first place and she is the one buying your powder and caps. One misstep and your rifle is GONE until you are 18.

A flintlock rifle is nice and has the romance of days gone by, but it does have a learning curve to it and that's where the caplock rifle fits in. Get your muzzleloading skills down first then move up to the flintlock rifle.

Caplock rifles can be had for a reasonable price - under $350 in good condition. Look for one that has a GOOD - nonpitted/rusted bore. Get yourself a bore light so that you can look down the bore. You can also check for rough spots in the bore with a lubricated patch run up and down the bore BUT you can also get that patch/ramrod stuck and then you will be "sweating bullets" trying to get it out. Next check that the locks works properly. Stays cocked when in full cock and engages the half cock notch securely. If you can't look the gun over in person and have to buy one online from a reputable gun dealer, make sure you have a grace period to examine the gun and send it back if it does not meet your standards.

There are other items to look for in a use rifle, but I am done writing for now and I don't want my comments to drag on and on - you get the picture

 

[CaptainVane]

The kid is 14yo and some of you are telling him to do things that an experienced gunsmith would do with a shop full of tools.
Maybe some day he can afford a Kibler, Chambers, etc. but not now.
Kid, find a nice used TC Hawken. They aint cheap but they are built like a brick smoke house, they are accurate, they work, they are a great first flintlock. I still have my first one, 53yo, and dead nuts accurate and all original parts.
My first rifle was a flinter and the sparks in my face didn’t make me soil my pants. Its part of the fun.
Its like saying get a bb gun cause the bang might scare you.

 

[morehops52]

Your responses here have peaked my interest in building myself a left handed flinter. I am new to the black powder world but have built modern rifles. I come from a metal, machining, wood working back ground and have a well equipped shop to build most anything. As popular as the Kibler kits are I don't think they offer LH models.i looked at Jim Chambers site and noticed that they offer an RK-4 Issac Haines left handed model. It looks to be around $1200 without any add ons. I'll be looking at that one in the near future. Whether a modern or traditional black powder gun they both take knowledge, time/patience, quality components to build. They are the same but different all at the same time.

I have a LH Chambers lock on my Lancaster rifle. Very high quality. You can buy the lock separately and build whatever you like.

 

[BackDraft]

Welcome from South-Central Indiana

 

[billraby]

And a parting comment, be very, very careful who you listen to or watch on Utoob. There is a bunch of misinformation and borderline stuff there. One absolutely solid Utoober is on this forum- Black Powder Maniac@ @B P Maniac Shooter He has a great Utoob channel and is a true example of a Southern Gentleman.

Very true. Rumble is much better for gun videos anyway. I make videos about building guns. Many times I am doing something for the first time and don't know what I am doing. But I am making a video about how to do it anyway. I am pretty good at making it look like I know what I am doing. Always try to get information from as many different sources as you can.

 

[Muley Gil]

Where in Virginia are you located, Chip? I'm down in Southwest VA, near Wytheville.

 

[TexiKan]

"Get the best you can" sounds like great advice yet in reality, that has not been the situation for most of us. some of us may have inherited a great muzzleloader from a family member or friend, but for those of us who had no such connections, we generally started with something less ...uh...desirable.
I have been in the recruiting business and have learned that a good, beginner product is acceptable for those exploring a hobby or endeavor. Too many have had a poor hand-me-down and managed to fail or succeed,despite what it was. Not many of us had a great car to begin with. I suspect the same was true when many of us began muzzleloading.
One of the challenging aspect of gaining new folks who will embrace the hobby is the cost. Can they afford a high quality gun? It is not an inexpensive hobby for anybody to start without the benefit of family or friends.
One aspect of starting with a more modest product it we will determine what we like and dislike about it. That will help us move on to a better product. The fact is, there are more entry level products available at a reasonable investment than there are of the good quality ones. The latter holds their value more than the former, but for those starting out, they will usually start with something more affordable unless fate and circumstances give them the opportunity to start with a better muzzleloader.
Many of us have the benefit of experience and years in the hobby, yet most of use did not have the advantage of quality to being most of our endeavors.

 

[Gun Tramp]

Perhaps Chip has moved on to something less complicated than traditional muzzleloading...

 

[FLTaft1948]

Flints vs caps. Mail order flints from someone like Track of the Wolf and the most you will have to pay extra is the postage to ship while to buy caps by mail you will have to pay a hazmat fee as well. Mailorder powder also has a hazmat fee. I believe that the fee is about $40. If you go the cap route you can also purchase a conversion nipple that allows you to use #209 shotgun primers in your long gun. They are sort of a pain to use (you have to unscrew the top, load the primer in and screw the top back on) but they work well and I have not had any trouble finding 209's when my regular caps are not available.
Good luck in your new endeavors, stay safe and have fun (yes, you can do both!)

 

[TFoley]

I just realised that it has all been saided........ I wonder what happened to him?

 

[ZUG]

He probably got bored reading all this - "Don't buy this - buy this - don't do this - do this - BLAH - BLAH - BLAH - BLAH -

 

[chiphasnoteeth]

Honestly yall, I got completely absorbed in finals week and forgot about this thread until now, two entire months later. I do still want to pursue muzzleloading, but as of right now, it's impossible till March (which I must say, came around much faster than I thought it would) when there's a final hearing regarding my parents' divorce. However, I won't bore you with details on my extremely personal life.
I'm super grateful for all the information provided to me, but there is quite a lot of contradictions from reply to reply. Some say caplocks, others flintlocks; I had no idea it was such a controversial topic. I still think I'm gonna go with a flintlock, but that's gonna be several months away. My top priority right now is saving for a computer to last me through high school, which I can definitely buy by summer.

Replies...
@longcruise (Not sure how to @ people correctly), I'd love to find a ml club near me, but I really don't know where to look. I'm in Northern VA, somewhat near Fairfax city. I think I just might look into posting a separate thread regarding clubs near me.

@morehops52 Thank you, so Hawkens are just a kind of rifle. I keep hearing about T/C and Lyman, so I'll definitely write that down for when I do actually buy my first rifle. Like I said, and I really keep driving this point home, I think I wanna stick with flintlock. Maybe I'll regret it, maybe not - only time will tell! And yeah, $350-500 for a rifle alone is perfect for my budget, maybe a tad steep. I can make it work though.

@54ball Good to know that companies sell kits, but it's probably best to stick with a used rifle for my first one, given all the information provided to me in this thread.

@azmntman Huh.. sounds like a lot. Thanks for the details though!

@Commodore Swab I think for my first, I just want something that works (or to go bang, as you say!). I'd rather not have to deal with gunsmithing for my first try.. I'll leave it for when I have more experience. Most likely I'll buy a used one from this forum and not mess with Indian repros.

@Marplot Duly noted - look for a mentor.

@TexiKan I'm not big, but I'm certain that I can handle a 10lb rifle. AKs are no issue, and 15lb ez bars are fine too. If it's really hard, I'll just mount it on a stand. I think yeah, I'll go with a .50 caliber rifle.

@Hammond79 Yes, it's my first firearm. I do a little bit of gun club shooting, and I'd like to think I have the fundamentals down, but perhaps not. I'd also love to get a .22 rifle, but that's just not possible in my situation.

@kansas_volunteer Yeah, a lot of it is quite confusing. A bit of research really helps me understand it though! I think I have decent shooting habits from shooting clubs at my school, but I don't know how well modern rifle shooting carries over to muzzleloaders. While yeah, I clearly keep being urged to go caplock for my first rifle, I just don't think I'm going to. There's something about the flintlock action that I really like the look of, plus I'm super into late 18th-early 19th century history. I don't recall if I said musket or rifle, but if I said musket, it was almost certainly due to lack of a better word (or desiring sentence variety), I know that muskets are smoothbores and there is a great difference between muskets and muzzleloading rifles.

TC flintlocks....
Mediocre at best. They were good in their day much better than the CVA Maslin flintlocks but the CVAs were horrible. Functional but horrible.
Now the TC flintlock is an orphan. It might as well be Goulcher from 1839.

Traditions......
Jukar and CVA still live.
They are better than nothing.
That are way overpriced for what they are.
A basic Traditions offering is 1/2 or 3/4 of the way to a Woodsrunner or Bess kit.

Ivestarms/Lyman/Great Plains/Gemmer/Bridger/ whatever they are this week.....
Great Guns. I love them.......
In percussion
In flintlock.... nope.

There’s an awesome history lesson with a Longrifle or Bess. It’s just not there with the TC and it’s clones unless you are into disco, bell bottoms and leisure suits. Yet they are.....
“Staying Ali——veeeeeee Ive. Staying Alive.

The Bess was designed for criminals, the dregs of society and street urchins to master.
With a loaded cartridge box, 2 opposing teeth and an intellect slightly above plant life a Bess can be mastered.
The Pedersoli Bess with it’s great lock would probably shoot with railroad gravel.

Here’s another thing.....
Lower priced flintlocks can set up the user for failure.
In the lower priced market....
Go percussion.

Well that's offsetting. I'd love to buy a Pedersoli Brown Bess as my first rifle, but I'm afraid I just don't have $1200+ to kick up for anything at the moment, much less something to introduce me to a hobby. Like I keep saying, I'd really love to go with flintlock. This just makes me wonder how bad lower priced flintlocks really are. I'm not looking for perfection, just something "to go bang". If it's not catastrophically horrible, it'll work for me. As in, it won't turn into an IED blowing up in my face.
Anyhow, is that true? Are budget flintlocks as horrible as you make them out to be? And if not, what do I even look for in a used flintlock rifle if T/C is too old by now and the other brands like Lyman and Investarms are mediocre?

I'm gonna look back at this thread in the morning and reply to page 3.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Flintlock rifles bring about a special set of challenges. For one thing, they require real black powder. The substitute powders are just not reliable in a flint lock. When I started off, many years ago, I didn't have someone to mentor me on the quirks of a flint lock rifle. @chiphasnoteeth, do you have a mentor or access to a local muzzleloading club? Any new flint lock will have to have the lock tuned or at least have the mating parts polished for best performance out of the lock. The rifle will be safe for sure. We want the first experience to be enjoyable. These locks can be made to be reliable. The barrel is likely to be accurate on target. The locks often need some initial polishing, but that's not a lot of trouble, but goes much better when you have someone to guide you through the process. Flints can be hard to find, but so can percussion caps.

By the way welcome to traditional muzzleloading with a traditional rifle. Once you get the flint lock tuned up, the flint sharp and secure in the lock, it can be as reliable as a percussion lock. Learning to shoot well with a flint lock rifle will improve your ability with any rifle.

I'll stand by my initial reply with some modifications now that we know a little more about you. Since @chiphasnoteeth has little money to spend, I doubt that he will want to be spending a lot of his money on powder. That leaves substitute powder and percussion locks (Cap locks) as a viable choice. There will be more inexpensive cap lock guns available and even with the cheap locks, they will set off caps far more readily than the same manufacturer's flint locks. The CVA (Traditions and Jukar) rifles with double set triggers have a better lock than their single trigger models.

You should be looking for rifles with very little surface rust and with rifling visible at the muzzle. Running a damp patch down the barrel will most likely cone out brown as if the bore is caked in rust. The old storage lubricants and some of the new lubricants turn brown in the barrel and you will be convinced that bore is rusted beyond recovery. If the patch turns with the rifling, all may not be lost. A good cleaning will often bring these rifles back to shooting condition.

If the breech looks good and the nipple can easily be removed, there is little likelihood that with reasonable loads, that the rifle will turn into an IED.

Continue a search for a local traditional muzzleloading gun club. This will put you in contact withn people who can mentor you and get you properly started in Traditional Muzzleloading.