MUSKET CAPS

[FJTBONE]

DOES ANYONE OUT THERE USE MUSKET CAPS ON THEIR HAWKEN TYPE RIFLES. I HAVE NOT HAD A FAILURE SINCE I CHANGED ALL MY RIFLES TO MUSKET NIPPLES, BUT THE GROUPS DONT SEEM TO BE AS TIGHT AND THE MUSKET CAPS ARE HARD TO FIND AND MORE EXPENSIVE. THANKS, TBONE

 

[Stumpkiller]

No. It may have effected your hearing, though. I use #11 for my non-muskets.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Those musket caps are way too hot, and will burn out nipples. They also apprently are so strong they move the PRB forward before the gas builds up sufficiently to push the ball down the barrel. That changes the size of the powder chamber, the pressure developed from shot to shot, and the velocity from shot to shot.

Why not simply learn to clean the nipple and flash channel with a vent pick, before you shoot, and use standard caps?

 

[marwat06]

I have tried musket caps on Hawken's type rifles and still had misfires. Keeping the nipple clean is the key Musket or #11. Currently I use #11 in both my rifles and have no problems with misfires. Since switching to Real BP ... I can go 20 shots without cleaning my nipples. I only clean after 20 because I assume it's going to start misfiring. Are you using real BP for your rifle?

 

[renovato]

I'd avoid musket caps and magnum caps both unless you absolutely need them. I've tried both a number of times and it always ruined my accuracy. I think Paul is right about it moving the ball off the charge. I've heard that several times elsewhere also and it seems fitting after seeing the effect on accuracy.

 

[Keppy]

What kind of powder do you use? I bought a rifle that had a musket nipple on it. The guy was trying to use pellets in it. I use Goex and #11 caps in my rifles. Not a problem with firing.

 

[FJTBONE]

I USE TRIPLE SEVEN POWDER WITH PRBs.i HAVE 2LBS LEFT AND AM GOING TO GOEX WHEN I RUN OUT. I STILL HAVE MY #11 NIPPLES, WILL THEY CHANGE MY GROUPS THIS FAR INTO THE SEASON? I AM GOING TO HUNTING CAMP IN TWO DAYS. THANKS GUYS, TBONE

 

[MikeC]

If your using 777 I would stick with the musket caps or magnum caps, you need the extra oumph they offer.

I've heard 209 primers can lift the charge but I can't imagine musket caps or magnum primers can do so, they are no where near as powerfull as 209 primers.

I'm from Morris County where are you located and where do you hunt?

Mike

 

[marwat06]

TBONE if it is working for you than stick with it. Maybe after hunting season you can try new combos of Caps and Powders. Good Luck on your hunt.

 

[FJTBONE]

I am in Gloucester county. I hunt mainly in Cumberland county but i try to get up to Sussex and Warren whenever i get the chance. I also like Clinton WMA. TBONE

 

[MikeC]

Good luck down there. I got a couple with the stickbow and I got the doe out of the way with the MZ on opening day. My PL is EAB.

I hunt in Somerset and Hunterdon Counties on PL. I also like to still hunt Wildcat Ridge WMA and Rockaway Valley WMA in Morris County later in the season.

Mike

 

[FJTBONE]

:hatsoff: Congrats, you have a freezer full.What does EAB mean. Your a lucky guy, I haven't been able to find any PL since I moved down here,but did find a real good club. I know Wildcat ridge any Farney State Park very well also Ken Lockwood.PM me if you like. Good Luck this week. TBONE

 

[Tumblernotch]

If a hot musket cap moves a patched ball down the barrel before it can ignite a black powder charge, you have a serious powder quality problem. Even in my musket with a loose fiting Minie that doesn't happen.
:hmm:

 

[MikeC]

EAB..."Earn A Buck" A doe must be taken before a buck can be taken. That goes for the bow seasons, permit shotgun and MZ. I'll PM you once I figure out how :hmm:

Good luck and hunt safe next week.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You have misunderstood the concern. Paul Matthews, the Dean of the .45-70 has observed this happening when using magnum primers in cartridge cases. He set us a batch of cases with bushing in the primer pockets so he could test small pistol primers. This was based on historical data he found searching old army test records. Using black powder, Paul get obscenely small groups out of Springfield Trapdoors at 200 yds, with these altered casings, and primers. It was his article that suggested that using magnum primers in black powder guns was not necessary, and may be doing the same thing as he observed shooting the Springfield cartridge gun. Musket caps are the true Magnum caps of the percussion world. The reason they are purchased and different nipples put on guns to use them is because so many percussion gun shooters are shooting those substitute powders. Other than Pinnacle, those subs are much harder to light, suggesting that the bullets may be moved by that Musket cap just as magnum rifle primers move the bullets in brass casings in Paul's tests. A comparison using the two different caps, with similar loads, shot over a chronograph will give a good idea if the concern is valid in a particular gun. Since a PRB has so much less friction holding it in the barrel, in either a rifle or smoothbore, is it not reasonable to be concerned about the ball being pushed forward by a heavy cap before the burning powder creates enough gas to push the ball down the barrel? Of course, some of the powder is going to ignite before the flame can reach the base of the ball or bullet! What we are concerned about occurs in the few milliseconds it takes for the gas to overcome the inertia( weight and friction) of the projectile to move it down the barrel. A " Studder -start" would change the length of the chamber, and alter both the pressure created, the timing of movement of the projectile, and the velocity it will gain. I would expect to see a greater SDV for guns shot using magnum primers, or musket caps, than those that are shot using standard percussion caps.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I am afraid that I have to agree with KanawhaRanger. If the musket cap causes the problems stated then 160 years of musket cap use has not shown it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

With all dure Respect to both of you, When have you ever heard any claims that a Zuave rifle was capable of very fine accuracy? Not shooting minie balls! A three inch group at 50 yds was considered battlefield adequate. Even in 1940, the Milspecs for the Garand M-1 was only 5 inches at 100 yds! We all know that the M-1 is capable of far better accuracy than that, but it usually involves replacing the barrel, holding chambering reamers to far tighter tolerances, and glass bedding stocks.

I don't know the answer for sure, because I have never fired musket caps other than one of the zuaves. I have done some brief testing of standard vs. magnum perdussion caps, but it consisted of firing an empty gun at night with just the cap on the nipple. and watching to see the length of, and color or the flame coming out the barrel. I got hotter flame from the magnums, but they were no longer than that thrown by the standard cap. I had expected to see differences in both! I decided that the company literature indicating the magnum caps were designed for use with the substitute powder was correct, and never used them with Black Powder in my rifle or shotgun.

I think it would be a simple test to conduct, shooting a series of groups side by side, using the same gun, load, etc. except using standard caps, and musket caps for the comparison. Shoot the loads over a Chronograph, and see what happens.I know longer have a percussion rifle, nor do I now know anyone for sure that has a rifle fitting with a nipple to use Musket caps. I suspect that if I called around, I could find such equipment to use. However, it seems like we have enough percussion rifle shooters here that someone else can do this testing and report their findings.

As I said in an earlier post, I never gave magnum ves. standard, or musket vs. standard caps much thought, until I heard of Paul Matthews findings using standard SMALL PISTOL PRIMERS in his .45-70 studies, and getting substantial reductions in group sizes, and in Standard Deviation in Velocity, over everything else he had learned to do with black powder in that casing. My skepticism is based on his article, the convincing argument he makes against using magnum caps of any sort for Black powder. He also cites the military records which reached the same conclusions in the 1870's tests. He was replicating their recommended loads and trying to confirm or disprove them using his chronograph, and his target range, and was pleasantly surprised that He can't be blamed for inventing the wheel! I thought it was noteworthy enough to mention here.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

And Paul, the mention of the possibilities is thought provoking and very much appreciated, it is possible that you are correct but in my experience from 20 and more years ago, nothing recent, the facts as I see them are not valid when it comes to pushing the bullet wawy from the charge before ignition. Such a problem would have to be caused by inferior or damp propellent and I include modern substitute powders in the inferior category. The Zouave reproduction is not the best rifle to use but it is certainly one of the most common and can be capable of some very fine shooting if properly tuned and loaded. Check with N-SSA shooters and examine closely their results and you will see that they, using fine-tuned factory made repops, original cuns and custom made reproductions of original guns are certainly capable of better than 3 in. groups at almost any range under 200 yards and that using the musket cap as standard in all of their muzzle loading competitions. All of that being said, I do feel that the musket cap is not needed with smaller caliber rifle. As you said, keep the cone and flash passage clean and a good #11 cap is all that is necesary - save the musket cap for the pieces that use it to the best effect.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I have to agree. I believe that there may be two faint possibilities of a very hot cap moving a bullet in a muzzleloader before the powder charge does it's thing. One is the the one I mentioned earlier, either damp or very inferior powder such as the substitutes or damaged or cheaply made BP. The other case would be in a very light caliber rifle with a fairly loose fitting bullet.

As you said, a #11 cap is enough to fire any gun that we use if the channel is not too long or has too many turns in it. And of course if it is kept clear of obstruction. A #11 will easily fire a musket, I've seen many old originals with them. It was much easier in the late 1800's and early this past century to get rifle cones than it was to get military musket cones. I do believe that you get more reliable ignition with the musket caps, but the main reason they were designed the way they were was the fact that they could be taken from a cap pouch and placed on the cone in the heat of battle much easier than with the small plain rifle cap.