minor T/C problems cause headache

[duke21]

i havent had either of my T/C 's very long , both are 50cal , one a hawken and other a renegade. the hawken has not had the best care in the past and i did a general cleaning and took it to shoot couple weeks ago, i really love the way that girl shoots. came across a renegade in what i thought similar condition and brought it home. finally got around to cleaning up last night with the intention of going shooting her today. well so much for intentions, what i thought was minor surface rust was at least 40 passes with a bronze brush with soapy water, breaklean, pb rustbuster, hoppes 9 , etc trying to get it clean. then it must have been the wee hours playing wiht my head, but i swore there was a ball stuck in it. anyhow, ended up fighting hte nipple off only to find the area between the nipple and the bore was plugged with rust. so i decided to take the cleanout screw out to brush it out. well, after using the same solvents as above, and heat from soldering iron, and propane torch, it still wont budge. finally got the dremel out and bored the center of the screw out, probably try an easyout this evening ,it is now soaking. after this ordeal i thought i would take the same screw out of the hawken and go get one in town and hopefully find a tap for it. well, guess what , now i cant get that screw out, it was out two weeks ago, and i even antisiezed it before reinstalling. DARN if these frustrations dont make you consider going back to cartridge guns. i love these things, i love nearly everything about them, but these little setbacks are really trying, especially when i got into this to releive pressure, not add it.

sorry for going on, but does anyone know the correct screw size and tap. after looking the renegade over, i really think a larger screw with the pan head sticking out instead of being counterbored may be a better long term deal. i just want to fix it right. i repair machinery all the time, and dont like shortcuts. what have you guys done in the past to remedy this?

thanks duke21

 

[bucktales]

duke21,
I can't answer our question regarding thread size, but after reading your post, I ask, is the barrel worth saving?
If it is that rusted as described, is it worth the time and effort?
Is re-barreling an option?
T/C or GM might be a good choice. There's even a new .54 barrel still on the classifieds here.
:2

 

[selvinman]

Try a Green Mountain if you can spare the $$ you'll be very happy that you did it. :thumbsup:

 

[renovato]

Howdy Duke. I can't help with the thread size, but I thought I'd drop a few useful tips I've picked up over time. They might help you or other folks out some time.

Here's an easy way to deal with a stuck screw if you have access to a drill press. First off, soak the screw with penetrating oil. Kroil or Ballistol work really well. Then chuck a screwdriver bit in the drill press, making sure to leave enough of the shank of the bit exposed so you can get a wrench on it to turn it. Use the drill press (motor off) to press the screwdriver bit into the screw and lock it down. Now use the wrench on the screwdriver bit to turn it. This prevents the screwdriver from jumping out of the screw and ruining the head, and it gives you far more torque to turn the screw than you could get otherwise.

As for rust in the bore. I've found that soaking the bore with penetrating oil (again, Kroil or Ballistol) and scrubbing with a brush wrapped with 0000 steel wool gets it clean pretty quick. Change out the steel wool every half dozen passes or so, clean out the rusty oil with dry patches, reoil and scrub some more. It usually doesn't take more than a few minutes work to get down to shiny metal. This is a way better system than using a rust remover like naval jelly, as it can etch the steel in the bore.

If you need to use heat to break a stuck screw loose, here's another helpful tip. Heat expands metal and cold contracts it. If you are heating the screw the same as the item it's screwed into, they both expand and it doesn't work all that well. However, if you take a screwdriver and put it in the freezer for a few minutes, you can hold it into the hot screw for a minute or two, cooling it down enough that it'll contract away from the hotter metal it's screwed into. This works with nuts and bolts too, using a chilled wrench. Essentially, any way you can find to heat the female threads while cooling the male ones will break a screw loose.

 

[Bob Miller]

In my opinion, buying a used percussion rifle is a buyer beware proposition; more so than a flintlock. Either can be abused, that is true, however...if the last owner shot a BP substitute [ not usually seen in a flinter] and neglected the gun, you are in for a lot of grief. "Hawken" type rifles I've seen are famous for this , and the residue will absolutely destroy a barrel.
I would not take any of the threaded items,ie breach, nipple,screws etc, for granted. Check them all. Given what you've described already, you might want to double check that bore and see if it's worth the trouble. It might be simpler to just rebarrel.
Don't slide back into cartridge guns!

 

[J.D.]

sorry for going on, but does anyone know the correct screw size and tap. after looking the renegade over, i really think a larger screw with the pan head sticking out instead of being counterbored may be a better long term deal. i just want to fix it right. i repair machinery all the time, and dont like shortcuts. what have you guys done in the past to remedy this?

thanks duke21

Leave it in. IMHO, the so called cleanout is merely a way to machine the flash channel. IMHO, there is no need to remove that screw. IMHO, they are too much of a PITA to remove. They get lost, they get stuck. They twist off. Save yourself a LOT of frustration and leave 'em in.

J.D.

 

[cowpoke1955]

Have to agree with J.D. My Lyman GPR has a clean out screw. Been shooting it for over 27 years and never removed it once. As others have said, if your barrel is that rusty, consider a new replacement or a good used one. You can look here or some of the auction sites. Good luck and don't give up on muzzle loaders.

 

[jtmattison]

The cleanout screw should be 8-32.

HD

 

[duke21]

WOW!!!,

guys i am really touched. i have been gone all day, had kids that wanted to go fishing, hadnt been myself this spring, so we went. Not going to talk about the results, but had a pretty good time nonetheless. anytime spent with kids in the outdoors is an investment in the future of our interests. while i was away, you guys really gave me some real thought provoking answers. a new barrel sounds nice, but probably not in the budget just yet, how much should i expect to pay for one if i decided i am tired of fooling with the renegade barrel? The Hawken one doesnt look too darned bad, the rifling is deep and clear,and just a few very minor spots internally. evidently not affecting accuracy as this gun is far more accurate and consistant than any other long gun i have. i will need to clean up and reblue in next few weeks but think it will be fine.

The Renegade barrel is still not perfect and the steel wool idea will likely get tried tommorrow after mowing the lawn. i have some time in it, but i think it will have to do for now. i see to have the channel between the nipple and the barrel cleaned out to working condition. i just wanted to get the side plug out, to really get in there and scrub it good. i considered leaving the screws in and really i kinda agree that they really dont have to come out, but i already started drilling out the one on the renegade. so i guess i will have to conplete the fix now.

excellent ideas on the drill press for additional pressure, i had read that somewhere before, and feel it has a good chance of working if there is enough head in the screw to get a bite on. unfortunately this one isnt in that category. i tried to take a dremel bit and grind a new slot, but it didnt turn out very good. i truthfully forgot about the hot/ cold trick on gettting the threads to seperate. I have known that to work before.

I dont plan on giving up on these babies, i really like my muzzleloaders, even if i cant seem to get anybody local to shoot with me. as local as i get is a 25 or 30 mile drive to the conservation club i mentioned before. When your doing this yourself, it gets frustrating dealing with a problem you never had before. I dont plan on quitting, just gotta get more organized and get these things 100 percent functional again.

many thanks,

duke

 

[Swede50]

I have gotten out a few broken screws and bolts by drilling out the center soaking with liquid wrench (over night)and using an easy out. If you get enough of the screw/bolt where there isnt much threads holding usualy this method will work. Sometimes you can just push in one one side and get whats left to crack and come out in a few pices. But like the others said if all else fails look for a good used barrel.

BTW please point the barrel in a safe direction if you use any heat or flame just in case there may be a charge or part of a charge left in the barrel.

 

[BrownBear]

I can relate to your frustration, because once I start trying to remove a reluctant screw, it can look like heck when my first efforts fail. Maybe me, but they end up looking bad enough I want them out and dressed up or replaced. Lots of good advice here for doing that.

Many folks don't like the cleanout screws, but I'm in the habit of using them. I've never cleaned my GPR's without removing them. I lightly grease the threads before reinstalling, and I've never had anything close to a freeze up. Same for nipples, as a matter of fact.

 

Gents,

My CVA Plainsman had a ruined clean out screw on the drum so out came the dremel and down went the head of that screw just to keep it from looking ragged and ugly.the nipple has to come out for cleaning and pyro rs will dribble into the drum from the nipple hole if I dry ball :redface: :cursing: I KNOW.

James Taylor

James Taylor

 

[Zonie]

To easily clean out the flash channel between the nipple and the bore, use a few dampened Pipe Cleaners. If you don't have any, a trip to the local drug store will most likely get you some.

If they don't have any, if there is a Craft Store in your area they often have Pipe Cleaners or something darn close to them. They are used by Crafty people to make twisted fuzzy craft projects (like cat toys) and artwork.
(By the way, cats seem to really get a kick out of pouncing on "bugs", snakes and the like which are made out of these things.)

 

[Maynerd62411]

I came across some stuff called "BLASTER". It eats rust. Soak that on for a day or two. I found it at a farm supply store. My bro-in-law swears by it...instead of at it, like usual. :nono:

 

[duke21]

i concure regarding "blaster", i have used it at my business for years, and has seen all kinds of use on the farm working on my and my fathers old antique tractors. The stuff is pretty darn good as a quick release, and also as a soaker. sometimes i have used Kroil as a soaker, and it works well,,,unstuck a few tractor cylinders with that stuff. havent been able to find Kroil lately.

this is what has been so frustrating, i have soaked the daylights out of these screws, now from both the insded and outside. these burgers are TOUGH. it doesnt help any that the screw flats are destroyed, i even tried to remake the flats with my dremel and minature dental carbide burr. its biggest flaw was the new slot has slightly rounded sides and let the screwdriver tip slide up. the drill press trick may be in line next.

if this had been a bigger bolt on a machine, i would have already welded on a nut . usually between the heat, and the twisting of the new nut, i have probably 90 percent success getting them cleared. needless to say, this screw is small enough, i am concerned about other damages if i tried this trick.

i have another posting on the pistol site, that is similar with nipples stuck on a CVA revolver. They are almost as frustrating, i have soaked them as whole bunch, i have destroyed a brand new nipple wrench working these out. i dont think they have ever been removed. i am in process of making some new wrenchs and will get to retry tomorrow, meanwhile they have been resoaked with both blaster and breakclean.

we will see,

duke21

 

[bavarialand]

T/C is one of the better co.'s on the planet, they have a service dept. second to only Ruger.

that said,
i had a friend who had the same problem as you, except he was the original owner. not knowing what to do he sent the barrel to T/C and they found it unsafe to shoot and sent him a new one at no cost. can't say they will do the same for you but it is worth looking into.

just my nickles worth.

Dave

 

[chuck-ia]

Personally, I don't think this is TCs problem. Any screw that gets black powder fouling in the threads has to be taken care of, (cleaned) this clean out screw, and the nipple would be taken out every time the gun is shot if it were mine. I know guys who own guns like this and never take the screw out, they have discovered it is too late now and just leave it alone. flinch

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I tend to agree with those who say "leave it alone", it really is not even intended to be a "clean-out-screw" but just a plug screw to close off the hole drilled for a flash channel. There is no need to ever remove it, just do as Zonie said and run a solvent soaked pipe cleaner through from the nipple hole. When I fit a barrel with a separate nipple drum these days I do not even drill for a clean-out screw, the old timers didn't use them so why would I need one.

 

[duke21]

having been self employed and also a manufacturer of machinery, i feel i understand the limits of a product warranty. There is Absolutely, no way the problems on these too guns are to be blamed on T/C. If i where to consult T/C on anything, i would question the small screw size and type of screw used. Although aestetically, it is very acceptable. the problem with both of these guns was simply neglect on the part of the past owners. The hawken has really cleaned up pretty well, but the renegade was just simply not cared for in the cleaning department. That being said, i have no reasons to be upset with T/C at all, frankly, i think many lesser guns would probably already be wall hangers.

duke21