Middlesex vs. Discriminating General The Same!

[jakeinthelake]

Hey Everyone,

There seems to be a lot of people blowin' smoke on some of the forum's threads.

I was at a 1812 re-enactment this month and a group of us did a comparison of 3rd Model Brown Bess Muskets. Guess what?

The muskets offered by Middlesex Village Trading and Discriminating General ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. No diff. Identical.

Someone had a Loyalist bess and it was clunky and completely different from MV and DG.

I am surprised no one has figured this out on the forum. So I phoned a guy at the Discriminating General and he confirmed Middlesex Village Trading uses the SAME manufacturer. Some of muskets are exclusive to MV and some to DG ... and some they share. Go figure.

At the re-enactment there was a gunsmith Les(?) from a company called Lion's Den Arms and Antiques who sold both DG and Loyalist muskets. We got to chatting and I ask him which is better? He said DG hands down...or should I say DG/MV.

So now when I am reading a review for MV or DG I now treat them as the same. I got a DG bess and it has been good to me so far after 4-500 rounds. Sure Pedersoli seems better, but who has 1500.00 to drop on a musket? At the event I would say over half the re-enactors had DG/MV besses.

Maybe someone could call MV to see if they will admit they use the same manufacture as the Discriminating General? My phone bill is gettin brutal.

Jake in the Lake.
:grin:

 

I am surprised no one has figured this out on the forum.

Wow, you've read every post on this forum? :wink:

 

[Alden]

Jake;
Are you fooling around? It is common knowledge that they all buy most of their arms from the same place, generally (no play on words intended) -- India. And there are only so many manufacturers... You haven't "discovered" anything. Truly. And are incorrect in my opinion anyway.

I have, between the last decade or two, bought guns from all of them. And a few others. Whilst there is much overlap there is one most critical difference to my mind's eye...

The Discriminating General seems to sell "seconds." Arms that are imperfect. Factory rejects. And the best and brightest of them know little about arms but most about shipping and sewing. And their customer service is THE WORST. I will not do business with them.

Loyalist? Yes. Veteran Arms? Sure. Middlesex? Why not...

Oh yeah -- welcome to the forums.

:shake:

 

[Billnpatti]

Given my opinion of guns made in India, what you've told me is that both DG and MV sell manure so now I know that I don't want a gun from either MV nor DG. Others may disagree with my assessment and that's okay. Some folks buy guns for struttin' but I buy mine for shootin'. Vote with your dollars.

 

[ncmtmike]

So is the one for sale at TOTW good or not???? :yakyak:

 

[jakeinthelake]

cool forum BTW. In the threads I read it was either MV is bad, buy from DG or the other way around or Loyalist is the same as MV and so on.

I thought it would be helpful to point out:

Middlesex = Discriminating in manufacture

Also Loyalist Arms = Veterans Arms

So that is two different manufactures and four retailers. Just tryin to clear the muddy water.

Jake.

 

[nit wit]

Alden:
You are right on, I tried to buy a frizzen from DG,The girl working there thought 100.00 was a fair price for a frizzen, cause a gun is 500.00.
At least at Middlesex you talk to an American with a brain.
Nit wit

 

[jakeinthelake]

Hey Alden,

Saw an original at Fort Niagara at an event there. Had my musket in hand. Looked pretty darn close to me. Course fire chats bounce back and forth on right and wrong. A guy said the Pedersoli bess bayonet look weird cause their barrels are smaller than the originals. Anyhow lots of talk of de-farbing a Pedersoli but not MV/DG. just saying.

One of the guys, Peter ?, who runs DG is the head of 1812 Crown Forces. He's got a good reputation in the hobby. Guess you have to when you got 500 muskets pointing at you. :wink: Maybe he was at a event when you called.

The thing is the hobby dies if no one can afford to get in. You think Civil War would be big if everyone paid 1500.00 for a musket? Nope.

Anyway thought my post would be helpful. Obviously it wasn't. Sorry.

Jake

 

[jakeinthelake]

Was she quoting a Pedersoli frizzen? Hope so. VTIGunparts.com is selling a Pedersoli Bess Frizzen for 118.00! Ouch. Maybe I can't afford this hobby.

Jake.

 

[Billnpatti]

If it's made in India, I would not want it. It is not a matter of who has it for sale, it is a matter of who makes it. If it is made by someone whom I consider to be reputable, then I might be willing to purchase it.....if I were in the market for that particular gun.

 

[jerem0621]

Are the India guns that bad?

I'm on a budget and MV can get me shooting in a new smoothy for way less than a grand. Plenty to buy my smoothy accessories, ball mold, and powder.

But if sub 2k guns are bad... We'll, Guess I won't be getting a smoothy.

Thanks

Jeremiah

 

[Coot]

I am hardly a fan of made in India guns but I suggest that you see & handle several before making a decision. One man's "fair" may be another mans "poor" & a thirds "ok value". :idunno:

 

[yakimaman]

I have a 1728 French musket copy that I got from Flintlock Repair, etc. It's run by a guy named Kathan and his wife - yes it's made in India, and yes it has a couple of small cosmetic flaws but that lock is fast, sparks great and this musket shoots as good as any. I can't get this gun anywhere else and feel it was worth every penny spent. The Kathans are incredibly helpful and offer a full warranty and a money back guarantee.

 

[Billnpatti]

In my limited experience, the guns made in India look good as long as you don't get up close and personal. Many of them have lock problems that require a lot of work to get them working properly. They seem to be better suited for reenacting than for serious shooting. I know that there are folks on the Forum who will tell you that they have had good experiences with their guns that were made in India but many will tell you that they are not any good. I guess a lot depends on the particular gun that you get, what your purpose for it is and what your standards are and the service that you get from the seller. I must admit that I have heard that the folks at Middlesex Village are good about taking care of the customer after the sale. I don't have any knowledge about the other source that has been mentioned. They may provide good service as well but I don't know. So, if you really do want a gun that is made in India and think it will serve your needs well, I would try to look at one of the guns. Handle it and, if the owner will allow you, shoot it. If you are happy with what you see, I think I might consider buying from MV just on the basis of their reputed good service.

Having said all of that, I still say that if it were me, I'd be looking in the various ads for a good condition used gun like I want that was made by someone like Pedersoli or even a custom made one. I'm still of the opinion that buying a gun made in India is a manure shoot, you may win but, then again......????? :idunno:

If you are handy at all with your hands, there are several places that's offer guns "In the white" for under 2K that all you have to do is to sand and finish the stock and brown the metal parts. Some guns, such as many of the military muskets, do not require that the barrels and locks even be browned. They are usually kept bright and just polished. You can get a smoothie without having to go the Indian made route.

Good luck on whatever decision you come to.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

We got to chatting and I ask him which is better? He said DG hands down...or should I say DG/MV.

Well that's one "gunsmith's" opinion. I have worked on three out of the four importer's guns. LA, MV, and DG. I found that LA and MV were very similar, but I had to reharden three MV frizzens that were only a year old. I've never had a problem with the function of an LA gun. I know of a fellow who loves his DG muskets, and bought several for a unit, but I have found the ones that I have seen to need more work than any other importer's.

I also only buy a musket with a pre-drilled touch hole, that comes that way from the importer. They are sold ready-to-fire. When you or your local gunsmith drill the hole, you are converting the musket from non-firing to firing.

Yes the Indian muskets are far from perfect. So are the Pedersoli's. I have three Pedersoli guns, and they function well, but their muskets are incorrect for North American for the AWI and before. My trade gun was poorly made with misdrilled ramrod pipe holes, and is very incorrect in appearance. So much for a $1000 Italian gun.

The Indian guns are far from junk, but they are not made with western mass production methods. They are generally, made by hand. They vary as did the orginials because of this.

The Italian muskets are so similar that replacement parts drop-in... but they cost more than 2X the price of the Indian guns. For that much money they should be correct for the time period. The only major argument in their favor is they come from the factory, having been to an Italian proof house. If you know what proofing is, and more importantly what it is not, that feature is not nearly as compelling as it sounds.

Plus one could send their Indian gun to Birgmingham and have it proofed, which negates the cost savings advantage, but the Indian gun would still look better than the Pedersoli from a historic point of view.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

If it's made in India, I would not want it. It is not a matter of who has it for sale, it is a matter of who makes it. If it is made by someone whom I consider to be reputable, then I might be willing to purchase it.....if I were in the market for that particular gun.

Same here. India has about 15 million people working in slavery. Many or most of the children. I simply do not care to patronize anything having to do with that country.

 

[Alden]

I have a 1728 French musket copy that I got from Flintlock Repair, etc. It's run by a guy named Kathan and his wife - yes it's made in India, and yes it has a couple of small cosmetic flaws but that lock is fast, sparks great and this musket shoots as good as any. I can't get this gun anywhere else and feel it was worth every penny spent. The Kathans are incredibly helpful and offer a full warranty and a money back guarantee.

Good point. "India" offers some guns readily which are too rare and too expensive otherwise if someone is just looking for an example of something or something a little different to play with. They are successful, there's no denying that, because in this "hobby," which will remain on the downslope until the 250th Rev. War anniversaries start to roll around, they provide something folk want.

That 1728 is an example -- I ended up with a 1728/46 Marine version from Loyalist that was affordable as a wall hanger or shooter. And the quality was addequate.

Compare that to the 1700 English Military Doglock Musket I got from DG: Forget the usual "you drill the touchole, we only fill in the pock-marked missing wood with putty" they deliver... Forget that LOYALIST took the time to mic a bayonet that would fit on it for me... The frizzen literally fell off the first time I pulled it out of my gun rack because the feather spring was so hard it broke the screw off at the lock plate!

DG's gun expert said they could do nothing. That the screw could not be removed because it didn't go through the lockplate. Of course it did and the stub could be removed regardless... They had no parts and so could not replace they screw or spring. They would replace the screw if I sent in the two halves. I did, waited wekks, and called for months. Finally got someone who said "oh yeah, that -- we didn't know who's that was" as they'd lost track of the paperwork. They sent me the wrong screw even though they had the original -- it was NOTHING like the original.

I won't even go through the six-month long order "their system didn't show" but they found the fax for when I called, the credit card transaction that didn't go through but they failed to call to tell me while the last gun of its kind in North America waited to be sold to someone else... WARNING: in my opinion DG are screw-ups with second-class products that I have personally seen across the reenacting community.

No India stuff is great, like Pedersoli or any of the Italian makers, but some India stuff is acceptable in some particular circumstances.

Here's one from a "Ivan Henry Trading Company" that I could not exchange before he went out of "business" -- good guy with unique 17th C. stuff. Sorry to see him have to "close." Oh, and guess what -- he bought his "India" made stuff from one of the places that sells them to other distributors too! Anyway, this pistol was "the pick of the litter" he said, and he hardened the frizzen for me. That's because the first one went back as the lateral sear barely engaged the heel of the cock. I got this with a loose frizzen (it wobbles as the spring doesn't engage it after it is half-way open and there is an 1/8" free play around the frizzen's attachment point) and, as you can see below, the cock jaws and frizzen are totally out of alignment.



This CAN be India and is not unlikely. Don't complain about Italian prices too much fellas.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah deity forbid that one would trade with a company or companies that employ fathers, brothers, husbands, so that they don't slip into poverty and sell their children into such a situation. Let's boycott the nation so that economics won't improve but worsen...that will solve the problem...

Wait, WHAT? :youcrazy:



LD

 

[Alden]

Exactly Dave!

Generations of the great unwashed masses who at least know what the next day, and life, will bring them and their posterity. Uncertainty is the American Man's burden.

And those kids aren't LITERALLY slaves. Jeez! Do you think I'd rather pay a U.S. union worker top dollar and get worse results? I'm glad I can help the impoverished children survive. I will concede they need more corporal punishment at the workbench if quality is to improve though...

:shake:

Now, I'm gonna go buy a hero/hoagie/submarine sandwich with turkey, ham, and Alpine Lace Swiss cheese where BACON, lettuce, and tomato are used as condiments with Russian Dressing for a few US dollars borrowed from China. Deity I love this country!

 

[yakimaman]

http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/yakimaman/library/Indian and original

Here is a link to some pictures I took this morning with a side by side look at my 1728 Indian made musket and an original gun of French parts restocked in the colonies.