Maxi Ball Lube in a 32 Cherokee

[Mike Gordon]

I recently dug out my TC Cherokee after a dozen year rest. When I purchased this gun new in '83 I also bought a set of TC molds, for the 32 RB and the 32 TC maxi ball. In my shooting in the past I realized that the maxi ball always edged out the RB in accuracy so long as I cleaned between shots. So when I went to shoot it again I spent most of my time shooting the maxi balls at 50 yards. The lube I was using at first was a tube of old TC wonder lube 1000 that must have bought about twenty years ago. My first couple of times out it was very hot at the range (mid 90s) so the lube was a bit runny. The accuracy was also so so. Since my eyesight is not what it was years ago when I first got the rifle I attributed the lousy accuracy to that and shooting with open sights. After some more poor shooting I was getting sick of the runny lube getting everywhere. So I switched to a harder homemade lube that I had made up for my 45-70s and 50-70s years ago made of 1/2 vaseline and 1/2 parafin wax (i'm not sure why it was in my shooting box.) Anyway my group immediately shrank to about two inches and stayed there. My last time out at the range it was considerably cooler so I tried the Wonder lube 1000 again and my groups immediately opened up to about 6 inches (and this is at 50 yards). Switching back to my homemade lube immediately closed up the group. So my questions is, has anyone else experienced such drastic changes simply by switching from one lube to another?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yes. Remember that lubes are used to seal the air gaps within the twisted fibers that make up the "threads" of the weave of the cloth patch. The tighter the weave, the higher the thread count, the less lube is needed, and the less change you get changing from one lube to another.

Spend some time with that old tube of Wonderlube squeezing the contents back and forth to re-mix the stuff. Its runny because the components have separated out over the years. If you can't remix it, then throw it away and buy some new lube. Or, better yet, just make your own. Vegetable oil mixed with beeswax, a a bit of liquid soap makes a fine lube. The ration of oil to wax will determine how well it works in the cold, and in hot weather.

Go to the Member Resources section on the index, and look for an article on Stumpy's Moose Juice, and Moose Snot. Its a simple but effective home made recipe for making patch lube from things you may have around the house, already.

I am not a big fan of using Vasoline in lube formulas, but I understand why some shooters use it to lube cast bullets for BPCS.

 

[Mike Gordon]

Thanks for the quick reply. I wasn't using a patch with the maxi ball. In the past I used the wonder lube 1000 for both patched ball and maxi ball. While I don't believe TC's claim's about not having to clean if you use the stuff, it was a lot easier to clean up then my homemade lube. My home made lube seems to leave the bore with a waxy coating even after I clean the gun, causing me to use a more modern bore cleaner afterward simply to remove the lube residue.

BTW I was using 23 grains of 3f GEOX black powder and the TC .32 maxi ball is listed as being 103 grains when cast of pure lead.

 

[paulvallandigham]

That is a hot load for a .32. Recall that the comparable cartridge would be the .32-20, Not the .32-40! Use 20 grains for a more reasonable load( I have found that 17 grains of 3Fg works best in modern .32-20 casings for accuracy.

AND, you need to size that bullet close to your bore diameter- .001-.002" under bore diameter-- to get the best accuracy. Also, using a felt Over Powder wad to protect the base of the bullet, and to seal gases Behind the bullet, by filling the grooves will give you much better accuracy. If the bullet you have is made with a " driving band" that requires you to drive the bullet onto the lands to seat it, that is fine- but not nearly adequate to protect the lead bullet from gas cutting. The hot gases can still travel up the grooves, and melt the sides and base of the bullet.

Cartridge reloaders refer to the OP wads as " Base Wads", designed to protect the base of a cast bullet from being burned, or melted. With a " driving band" bullet, a "Base Wad" is going to contribute a lot to fine accuracy.

Many prefer the Ox-Yoke prelubed felt wads for this purpose. I would not expect the best performance in a MLer, UNLESS the felt wad is large enough in diameter to fill the Grooves( Groove diameter). You may have to go to a .36 caliber felt wad to get this done in your gun.

As to cleaning, Use Soap and warm- not HOT-- Water and a bore brush to get into the corners of the grooves to knock out all the carbon build-up( residue) found there.

Wonderlube DOES melt down and will dissolve prior left over wonderlube, but IT DOES NOT remove BP residue. Claims to the contrary are nonsense. Too many of these older T/C rifles have ended up in Pawn shops or at garage sales, being sold because the " Barrel is shot out"-- this because you can't see any grooves in the barrel anymore. In reality, the grooves have simply filled with carbon deposits. A good cleaning with soap and water, and a good scrubbing with a bronze bore brush is all that is needed to make those "Grooves" REAPPEAR( magic?). We have several members of this forum who make a lot of money to spend on other guns, by buying these "shot out" guns, or barrels for next to nothing, then clean them properly and sell the barrels and guns at a nice profit.

With Vasoline, you may have to flush the barrel with alcohol to get that residue Out of the barrel. Vasoline is a Petroleum based product, with a much higher burn temperature than can be produced using Black Powder. Using any Petroleum based oil or grease in your MLer results in tar-like residue not only in the grooves, but also, eventually, in the powder chamber and flash channel under the nipple.

Inexpensive, Isopropyl alcohol is good enough for this work. You don't need to use expensive modern bore solvents like Hoppes, or Shooter's Choice. They work-- don't get me wrong. They simply are not necessary to clean your MLer, unless you shoot copper jacketed bullets in it, without some kind of sabot(shoe) to protect the bore.

To "flush" the barrel, with alcohol, simply remove the nipple- to clean separately--- and then plug the hole in the bolster where the nipple is screwed into the action with a cleaning patch. Now pour alcohol down the barrel, cover the bolster with one finger or thumb, and the muzzle with your other thumb, and shake the solution back and forth in the barrel. Pour it into a toilet or sink.It will come out looking very black! I dampen a patch with alcohol and run it down and out of the barrel with my cleaning jag on my range rod. If the patch still shows lines of black streaks were the corners of the grooves correspond to the patch, I use a bore brush with another patch, also dampened with alcohol, to scrub the groove to loosen the carbon, and tars. The I pour more alcohol in the barrel and repeat the shaking again. Most of the remaining tars will be located in the powder chamber and flash channel, so stand the barrel somewhere, and let the alcohol do its job in those tight places for a few minutes. Then, pour the alcohol out.

I use a pipe cleaner run down the flash channel from the bolster, to clean out any remaining residue in that channel. You will need a chamber sized brush-- usually .22-.35 caliber, depending on the caliber of your rifle, and a cleaning patch soaked in alcohol to clean the powder chamber out. The alcohol left will evaporate.

Now, use soap and water to remove the rest of the carbon and graphite that is embedded in the pores of the steel. This residue, while not corrosive, will attract and hold moisture which Will rust the barrel.

Rinse with clean water, and dry.

Now coat the bore with a good synthetic or vegetable oil to prevent rusting, or use a good product like the B/C Sheath, if you are storing the gun for any length of time.

If you insist on using a petroleum based oil to protect the barrel from rusting, then remember to remove that oil by flushing the barrel with alcohol before you shoot it again.

I still recommend storing guns Muzzle Down, to keep oil from congealing in the smaller powder chamber, or worse, in the flash channel. Just put a rag, newspapers or paper towels under the muzzle to catch the oil that drips out.

Once a week- less often if your house is heated and air conditioned-- dust the outside of the barrel, and coat both the outside and inside with some more oil or patch lube.

I use Wonderlube for both purposes, but clean the gun before taking it out to shoot. I find that the wax seems to hold the oil on the steel surfaces, and resists minor handling without letting finger prints get a permanent fix in my finish. Any wax also works well to seal the finish/wood in the stock.

 

[Billnpatti]

I used to own a Pedersoli .32 Squirrel Gun in which I shot the Maxi Balls. I used Bore Butter which is essentially the same as the stuff that you are using. I, too, found it to be exceptionally messy in the summer heat in Texas. I also tried some of the bullet lube that I had for my cast bullets for my centerfire handguns. That stuff was stiff as a board but did stay in place much better. My groups seemed to be better with the modern bullet lube but I wasn't sure if it was a petrolium based lube. Do not use petrolium based lubes in your rifle. That stuff seems to make a gooey mess inside your bore. Stick with the natural, non-petrolium based lubes. Then I hit on a lube that really made a difference and that was a mixture of bees wax and Ballistol. About 8 oz melted bees wax (let it cool (stir it) until it is starting to show signs of thickening up. Then slowly, with stirring, add 1 to 2 oz (2 oz for winter and 1 oz for summer) of Ballistol and stir like a madman. If the wax is too hot, the Ballistol will boil up and possibly overflow your container. It will seem as if it won't thoroughly mix but keep whipping it as it cools. When it starts to thicken up, add about 1 oz of Murphy's Oil Soap and keep whipping until it is all mixed and creamy looking. Then pour it into a container to finish setting up. The Murphy's will make it more like a creamy lube than a gummy thick one.

The final answer to good groups is to use an over powder wad. I make mine from scrap tooling leather that I saturate with Ballistol and pat dry before using, but felt wads will work about as well. You can find ready made .32 felt wads from places such as Ox Yoke (I don't remember who is making and selling their wads now but you can do a Google search). When I use felt wads, I make them myself using a 5/16 hollow punch (Harbor Freight) and 1/8 inch thick hard felt from Durofelt. Just lay them out on an old microwave safe plate and put a little dab of your lube of choice on them. Stick them in your microwave just long enough to melt the lube into the felt. Let them cool and you are good to go. To use them, just seat one on top of your powder and then seat the bullet. They should fit very snuggly in the bore. if they are loose, they will do no good in sealing the hot gasses. They will help seal the hot expanding gasses and give you a much more consistant MV. The standard deviation for my MV went from 21 without OP wads down to 7 with OP wads. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Gordon]

Thanks again. One blackpowder shooter at the range seemed horrified that I was using a petroleum based lube when I told him what it was made of. Well the stuff also waterproofs leather pretty well. Oh and I should have mentioned, I was shooting 10 shot groups at 50 yards.