Makers Mark Identification

[Mrbill55]

Dave,

Thanks, I see there is also a subforum for identification of these, I'm going to start a new thread there as well

Bill

 

[Ragged Edge]

Is there a line running down the frizzen face that looks like it could be a casting line, or do my old eyes deceive me? Again.

 

[Mrbill55]

Is there a line running down the frizzen face that looks like it could be a casting line, or do my old eyes deceive me? Again.

Ok, what is a "frizzen"?

Bill

 

[Nameless Hunter]

Ok, what is a "frizzen"?

Bill

Frizzy hair that gets frozen in the winter?
Sorry...
A picture is worth a thousand words...

 

[dave_person]

Hi Bill,
The flat surface struck by the flint is called a frizzen in modern times. On the outside of the lock, the swan necked part holding the flint is called the cock or flint cock. It is not called a hammer until the percussion ignition days. The big plate holding all the parts is the lock plate. At the top of the plate is the pan that holds the priming powder near the vent hole in the barrel. Pivoting over and covering the pan is the frizzen. It includes the smooth surface for the flint to make sparks and the cover over the pan. In the 18th century it was called the battery, hammer, or steel. The spring that gives the frizzen tension is now called the frizzen spring, however, in the old days it was called the feather spring, steel spring, hammer spring, or battery spring. The flint cock has several parts. The separate top jaw for the vise holding the flint is called the top jaw or upper jaw, and the screw that pinches the jaws on the flint is the jaw screw. Finally, the screw holding the cock on its pivot is called the tumbler screw, tumbler pin, cock screw or cock pin.

dave

 

[Ragged Edge]

Ok, what is a "frizzen"?

Bill

Sorry Bill. I actually thought you were pulling my leg. My bad.

 

[Mrbill55]

Is there a line running down the frizzen face that looks like it could be a casting line, or do my old eyes deceive me? Again.

I love learning new stuff

Attached "Frizzen", with and without flash

I do not see a casting line, but perhaps a strike line from the flint?

Sorry Bill. I actually thought you were pulling my leg. My bad.

Nope, I said it above, I am less than a novice on Flintlocks

Bill

 

[Mrbill55]

Based on my measurement pic above, any idea on Caliber?

As always, your assistance is appreciated

Bill

 

[Grenadier1758]

Looks pretty close to 11/16" or 0.6875 or taking away a guess at the barrel wall thickness it may be 0.66"

 

[Mrbill55]

Looks pretty close to 11/16" or 0.6875 or taking away a guess at the barrel wall thickness it may be 0.66"

What would that make the caliber?

Thanks

Bill

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
It is a little hard to tell from your photos but I believe it is 0.62 caliber or 20 gauge. That would be a common sporting gun caliber or gauge. The caliber is simply the measurement in inches and your ruler looks to measure a bore of 10/16" or 5/8" or 0.625". That is not a common military bore size. As I mentioned previously, the gun was made for civilian hunting purposes and was later adapted to mount a bayonet.

dave

 

[sheriff john]

We all reach the same delimma with potential heirs as you, antique firearms especially. Suggest obtaining an in-person appraisal from a company specializing in the sale of such firearms. Your gun in present condition with matching bayonet is valuable. Trying to determine what it's worth from photographs will be an educated guess, even from experts. Going through same thing as you with family items. Thanks for posting.

 

[TFoley]

Fine firearm , I think it is too ornate to be a military firearm .
. The 3 small marks on the barrel flat look like English marks but need a close up with as much crud removed as possible .
I have just had a look at my Flintlock Fowlers book and it looks like a club butt fowler which either came with a bayonet or was fitted with one in the French and Indian war or the American revolution.
Besides a better look at what appear to be proof or makers marks we need the most important photos for identification , that is a close up of the lock and trigger guard/grip from the righthand side . Also the right of the Butt .
All the interesting brass bits do not help in identifying the firearm , except to say it is a special and interesting firearm , a lot of American made fowlers had that sort of fancy brass work
The CS in the wood is most probably the owners initials
TFoley if you read "Flintlock Fowlers , the first guns made in America by Tom Grinsdale" you will see all the guns in the book were full stock , some were fitted with bayonets as I said above .
These early American fowlers usually had British made barrels and locks , so Brit proof marks are not out of the question

Thanks, Mr Finger - useful information for me and my never-stop-learning old brain. Sadly, I'm about as likely to get ahold of Mr Grinsdale's book as I am to an original typewritten draft of the Magna Carta, so I'll take your word for it.

 

[TFoley]

Hi,
I don't think it is a Spanish barrel. There is no city mark or cross and other European makers stamped their barrels in ways similar to the Spanish. I think it is Dutch all the way down, built as a civilian sporting gun and then cut back for a very poorly made bayonet. They could not fit a proper one because the cut back would take out the forward ramrod thimble. In Arne Hoff's book on Dutch firearms, there is a fowler made in Maastricht with almost identical hardware and stock. It might be good to remember that Maastricht was under Spanish rule during the first half of the 17th century so they have been influenced by the Spanish.
dave

Yup, See the movie 'Alatriste' - lots and LOTS of weapons of the day from Arquebusi and matchlocks to wheellocks...a great movie, for sure.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Based on my measurement pic above, any idea on Caliber?

As always, your assistance is appreciated

Bill

You will need an inside measuring digital Vernier caliper to get the bore diameter measurement. Both @dave_person's speculation of a 62 caliber bore and my estimation of a 66 caliber bore based on the picture are just that guesses. Until the bore is measured with a more precise measuring device, we can only guess. Both bores would have been likely for a Dutch civilian fowling gun converted for militia use.

The firearm appears to be a smooth bored fowling gun that has been fitted with a bayonet. It does not appear to be rifled.

 

[Mrbill55]

We all reach the same delimma with potential heirs as you, antique firearms especially. Suggest obtaining an in-person appraisal from a company specializing in the sale of such firearms. Your gun in present condition with matching bayonet is valuable. Trying to determine what it's worth from photographs will be an educated guess, even from experts. Going through same thing as you with family items. Thanks for posting.

I don't want to come off as callous, or rude, but I'm not so worried about value, if I'm dead and buried, let someone else worry about that aspect of the equation. I started the two threads in hopes of identifying what it is I actually have in my posession.

Humbly,

Bill

 

[DuncNZ]

This is a picture taken from Grinsdale's book . The gun is a Hudson Valley Fowler c. 1760 page 148 . He says this this American made gun has a Spanish made barrel with an English lock . The marks match those on the subject gun .
The brass grip does not show up on any of the guns in the book on a quick flip through
The wood could give a clue . Also taking the lock off to see if it is signed would make a lot of difference . the angular pan (does it have a special name ?) and the lack of a bridle on the pan is unusual but not unknown maybe Germanic ? .So it probably isn't American made but an import which may have the bayonet fitted for the French & Indian or the American war

)

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Being a fowling piece, measuring the end of the bore with calipers may or may not give a true read of the bore size. Many fowling pieces had bores that were relieved in the the muzzle.

 

[DuncNZ]

The I S (probably J S )and C S indicate that it may have stayed in the same family for 2 generations .

 

[Robby]

It does have a military look to me and with much of Europe being a conglomerate of baronies this could be nicely finished gun for the family fiefdoms' armory. My first impression was Dutch. Just speculating.
Robby