Lymans PDF Shooters manuals

I downloaded good (PDF) muzzle loaders manuals on Lymans website, really fixed me up. Also corrupted me totally, now considering the next Muzzle loader. 54 caliber 200 yard+ steel pig shooter for sure, cant decide on the ball twist or conical bullet twist, or comprimise between the two (1:48). Plains rifle, trade rifle or stainless deerstalker....Sheesh. Flint or percussion, Kit or pre done rifle. Do the lyman rifles come with good fit and finish, or can one assemble one themselves and get a more refined fit? Have to figure out what I want to do the most and what style of shooting with the Rifle first.

Let me see if Ive got my Muzzle loading options right -

caliber: 50 for target and plinking, closer range, smaller game, deer max at 100 yards. 54 for longer range target, bigger and thicker (elk) critters. can a 54 cal ball wax a deer at 200 yards?

flintlock is the purists choice, no dependancies on remington factory or CCI for caps, but must have a source for flint. wear eye glasses, and dont shoot near puddles of gasoline. :crackup: shave before going to the range perhaps. what about shooting one in the rain? Would have to have a tomohawk as well. Better shoot one for a day first and see if I like it.

Percussion for convenience, and a little more velocity, and oh for sure safety from getting whiskers burned and eyes damaged by the flash pan. Drawback, not as close to the essence of the art, and a dependancy on cap manufacturers. I make caps for my ruger old army, have to try making a cap for the hawken.

Inline muzzle loaders..They are stainless steel, and have a user servicable breech where you can clean them and maintain them. That is very appealing. But I dont :shake: like the look and feel of them, too modern for what im interested in muzzle loaders for. Very versatile BP guns, but What was the individual thinking :youcrazy: when they designed those plastic primer disks and holders? .Looks like a fella can get rich machining stainless steel primer holders. Buddy of mine has an inline, man the thing craters my steel targets with those copper jacketed footballs, what a powerhouse. Doesnt shoot any better than my hawken, and has a plastic, but easy to clean stock.

patch and ball - the long bow of the art, sweet, simple and organic. A little frusterating :curse: to have to cram it all down the hole. Maybe im not doing it right. To have to carry around that silly ball starter, YUCK!. Dependant on patch material. Really like the patch and ball.

Conicals - easy to use, harder to cast, heavier loads, more down range ooompfh. But a deviation from the essence. No dependancy on patch material, but must have good Lube, and perhaps wads. Perhaps a person should have barrell twist that will shoot balls and conicals. makes one wonder just how accurate a 1:60+ twist is with balls as opposed to 1:48?


Oh well, Im off to do honey-doos, and then re-learn cap and ball and conical theories.

Looked at the custom Muzzle loaders links, very nice but out of my league price wise. A 54 caliber lyman will be my next one. Affordable, readily available, good support. Probably shoots better than I am going to be capable of for some time to come

>>>----->Apache<-----<<<

 

[Zoobear]

WOW! Im worn out. Ya got alot on your mind for sure. My advice would be buy one and shoot it alot. Good luck. :: :relax: :kid:

 

[RiverRat]

Lymans are nice.

 

[arcticap]

I'm waiting on a .54 Renegade Hunter that I just purchased new. It will fill a niche. Hey, when you've got the itch, you have to scratch it! :winking:

 

Yeah, Zoobear, SOmetimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits. Writing/Rambling helped me figger out what to do. Going to focus on the round ball, and the patch, with the option to shoot a conical. 1:48 twist no flintlocks, dont have the desire to mess with flint and frizzens. I do admire them however.

 

[AZ-Robert]

That extra barrel option Lyman offers is pretty nice - you can get the 1:60 on the GPR for round ball, and the extra Hunter barrel in 1:32 for the other stuff. You can even switch calibers in the process, if you have a mind for that sort of thing.

 

[ResearchPress]

flintlock is the purists choice... ... .. .
Percussion for convenience, ... .. Drawback, not as close to the essence of the art

Some interesting choices of words. Why is flintlock anymore a purist choice than percussion, and just what is meant by "essence of the art"?

I'm interested to know just what makes flintlock such a magical form of muzzle loader. Why is it more 'pure' than say matchlock or other early forms of ignition?

David

 

[oomcurt]

Er...I looked at Lyman's site...could not find any reference to any pdf files to download. Maybe I got the wrong site...could you please post the url where you found those files?

Thanking in advance for any info.
Curt

 

[AZ-Robert]

Start on the index page, then click the black powder button (at top) to get to the page that advertises the guns. Then click on the Adobe Acrobat icon beside the words that read "Instructions Click Here" below the gun in which you are interested. That gets you a pdf of the users manual, not instructions on ordering.

Here is the link to the index.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/index.htm

EDIT: Actually, all lead to the same file - a combined manual for all of them.

 

Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits. Writing/Rambling helps me figer out what to do

good,you sit, you think,,read some,,then read more. nothing new,,round ball good,,many are the ways.

 

flintlock is the purists choice, no dependancies on remington factory or CCI for caps, but must have a source for flint. wear eye glasses, and dont shoot near puddles of gasoline. :crackup: shave before going to the range perhaps. what about shooting one in the rain? Would have to have a tomohawk as well. Better shoot one for a day first and see if I like it.

1 - You should wear shooting glasses regardless of the ignition type. A small piece of metal blown off of a percussion cap can screw up your eyes just as well as flint chips and flash.

B - Flints are just as easy to come by as caps, there are many places online where you can order them and have them in a day or two. They last a lot longer than a tin of caps as well.

III - Flintlocks arent really more "pure" than caps, they're just earlier. Your idea of shooting one for a day is a good one... but be warned: if you're anything like the rest of us who shoot flintlocks, you will get addicted very quickly. I have 3 bp guns, two are flint, one is percussion, and I'm building a 4th (flint). I have zero desire to even shoulder the percussion gun any more, and will possibly even give it to a friend of mine to get him involved in the sport.

One of my guns is a Lyman Great Plains Rifle, .54, in flintlock. Love the gun... you could definitely do worse. The T/C rifles are great as well, and have a warranty that is second to none.

 

[Stumpkiller]

can a 54 cal ball wax a deer at 200 yards?

Not from my guns. I can't see open sights reliably well enough to attempt anything much past 120 yards, anyway. Bowhunt from the ground and set yourself a 25 yard maximum range limit until you take a deer or elk, and then a .54 round ball will seem like a gift from God to you. Start it out fast enough and dope the wind and elevation well enough and it will do it. For practical purposes: No.

Percussion for convenience, and a little more velocity, and oh for sure safety from getting whiskers burned and eyes damaged by the flash pan. Drawback, not as close to the essence of the art, and a dependancy on cap manufacturers. I make caps for my ruger old army, have to try making a cap for the hawken.

Ah. StaticXD00d beat me. Catch a fragment of hot cap or a chunk of shattered nipple in the eye and you won't like it any better than the flash from a flintlock. You'll want glasses in case there's an ember in the barrel when you're adding powder, anyway. Never had that happen, never knew anyone with a rifle to have it happen, but I'm certain 80 gr of FFg exiting the muzzle under your nose and the measure in your fingers will spoil the whole rest of your day.

To have to carry around that silly ball starter, YUCK!.

I don't use one. You can either have a muzzle crowned, coned, or use a thinner patch/slicker lube/0.005" smaller ball. You rarely-to-the-point-of-almost-never see a short starter in an original hunting pouch. Occasionally one associated with a loading block, but with just a small 1 or 2" tip to push the patched ball out of the block.

 

[weirdjack]

Catch a fragment of hot cap or a chunk of shattered nipple in the eye and you won't like it any better than the flash from a flintlock. (SNIP) ball starter, YUCK!. I don't use one.

Yup...on both counts.
1. Fragments: When I shot caplocks a lot, I had many a cap fragment find it's way to me. I remember at least one drawing blood. Never had an issue with a flintlock that way. Keep the pan charge sufficient, but not pyrotechnic.
2. Ball starter: I don't use one now. If a ball won't thumb-push into the muzzle, I lay my patch knife handle on it and push it flush. Then it's normal rod time from that point.
Jack

 

Some interesting choices of words. Why is flintlock anymore a purist choice than percussion, and just what is meant by "essence of the art"?

I'm interested to know just what makes flintlock such a magical form of muzzle loader. Why is it more 'pure' than say matchlock or other early forms of ignition?

First I would say that those who shoot any muzzle loaders are "purists" and are seeking the essence of the art. Otherwise youd be hauling the 300 winchester short magnum, AR-15, or Barrett 50, or what ever hot rod type caliber of the week out to the range. I am fixing to leave for the range this evening, and its not the 300 short mag that is sitting here waiting, its in the safe - its the 50 caliber "hawken" that is going out this evening. Let me try and explain what I was saying, and in the future Ill watch my mouth so I dont have to 'splain myself.

I look at a flintlock and its a marvel and a wonder that someone can get that hammer and flint to direct that spark into the pan. Heres another bit of magic - just how did the old timers get a spherical hole in a square block of metal to cast a round ball? Nowadays its called a CNC lathe, and circular interpolation, or a lathe on a cherry cutter doing the same math routine. The essence of that art would be some toolmaker and a chisel and file cutting by hand.


"Essence of the art" - at some point something starts out and is so crude that its workable but (to me) not enjoyable or practical. The art or system evolves into a workable, practical endeavor, and reaches a point of efficiency, and simplicity. As it evolves into the future or so called "progress" the form or system generally improves, until it reaches a point whereby it is no longer practical efficient, or retaining the attributes of the technology as it was in its apex - subjectively speaking. WHen the art or technology reaches a point where its all working, and working well and has retained most of the attributes of its conception that is the "essence" of a design art or system.

cars-
remember the days when you could work on a car, and didnt have so many microcomputers on it that you could use common sense mechanics and make it run? Remember the 70's muscle car era? The essence of the hot rodders art. Granted we can go faster and use less fuel now. What turns your head, a mitsubishi eclips or a 73 challenger or corvette?

example like so -
matchlock
flint lock
percussion
inline

Id opinion that the matchlock was a good starting point, but has some really inconvenient features. Personally Id rather have a good bow, and a quiver full of arrows. Flintlock has the evolution to efficiency and for most purposes does everything a muzzle loader needs to do, probably has no accuracy edge over the percussion, yet has that wonderfully more complicated but effective ignition. Percussion adds the convenience of a more weather resistant and faster method of getting loaded, a little more safety, but relies on the availability of those caps. The purcussion transfers the mechanical complexity of the flintlock off onto the manufacturer of the caps, and the shooter gets a cap instead of all the fabricated parts and flint attached to the rifle. Flitnlock is good enough - the pure and effective essence of the muzzle loader, in its pure form. A flintlock is a self contained machine, add powder and lead and shoot. That is a pure design.

Next we get to the Inline. While (in my opinion) one of its purposes developed as a tricky merchants way of getting a centerfire class weapon into the primitive season market, similar to the compound bows intrusion into primitive archery. Inline has a remarkable set of attributes, just as the compound bow does, and both qualify as what they are - muzzle loading and archery. They have their place and time and their supporters and detractors. The feature I like about the inlines, is that it is a centerfire class of arm, yet uses the simplicity of the muzzle loaders of old time, except for that silly priming disk nonsense. So from the matchlock to the inline you have devolved backwards, away from the apex flint/percussion systems. Inline requires no brass or reloading press but packs a real punch and has maintenance features that are an improvement over the older designs.

The same could be said about shooting conical bullets with pyrodex instead of the patch and ball, and True black powder. THe essence of the pure art for design of muzzle loading did not have pyrodex, nor conicals, or sabots etc...Understand I am not detracting from those components or those (including myself) who use them. I am simply stating what appears (in my opinion) to be a historical trend in technology. Patch and ball, Flint and steel, Goex. The essence, for the purist. Ill be shooting a purcussion this evening, maxi hunters, and Pyrodex. DOnt feel like being a purist much today, just want to shoot the easier way. Does that make sense??

Take the same analogy into the computer op systems. the apex of windows was windows 2000. the match lock of windows was windows 3.0, and the inline of windows would be windows XP with all its bells and whisles, yet full of security flaws and spyware avenues. A "purists" flavor of windows would be back a notch to win2000 and all bet not one in a thousand geeks are running it. Im running win2000/Linux, and have no desire to touch XP, inspite of its many "improvements".

anyway. There you have it.

 

[strongarm]

:haha: Your kidding yourself to shoot anything other than paper at 200 yds. I have a hunter in .50 and a GPR in .54 and although they are easy to put together from a kit and they have the most beautiful wood you'd ever want other than curley maple, my .54 drops 39 inches at 200 yds which is a 1:60 twist shooting 100 grns with a .530 rb.

The .50 might do a better job shooting a 320 grain REAL bullet but haven't shot anyting over a 100. Jim Schockley maintains a 130 yd max on his hunting trips and that sounds about right.

 

[ResearchPress]

Hi Apache,

Thanks for the lengthy response to my questions. I appreciate that the flintlock is a marvel of engineering for its time and at its peak was both a highly efficient arm and a wonderfully aesthetic work.

Ultimately though it is all somewhat subjective, and the questions of 'purity' and 'essence of the art' are matters that individuals will answer differently depending on where their interests lie and the purpose of the rifle.

The developement of the Minie bullet is a great leap ahead of patch and ball, and combined with the Enfield rifle might be considered by the military arm enthuiast as the pinnacle of design, combining simplicity and efficiency into the purist form of military rifle.

The heavy American bench rest rifles with their complex cleaning and managament regimes, firing two piece bullets and making tiny groups at 200 yards might be the essence of the art for some.

For me the essence of the art is firing muzzle loading rifles at 1000 yards. These long range match rifles of the 1860-1880 period were of the 'purist' design, being solely for the purpose of target shooting; half stock and pistol grip, heavy match barrels, aperture sights with vernier scale adjustment and firing heavy paper patched bullets.

David

 

T/C sent me a printed manual for the "hawken", they are great folks. I dont understand why they dont simply put PDF manuals on line? Somebody somewhere, needs to produce a good downloadable and printable document on Muzzle loading the TC. Maybe when Ive got a good handle on all of it. Tough job, but somebody has got to do it.

ALso purchased a lymans black powder handbook, but heck, the best handbook of muzzle loading is right here on this forum, and you guys are the authors. Lyman Handbook does not have a lot to say about what patches I should use in a TC "hawken" and all I can buy retail are .018 thick, and a .490 ball. I actually recovered a hand full of patches this evening and they are in great shape, and except for being frayed all around the edges and much fluffier than they were when I last saw them go down the hole, I would be tempted to lube them and shoot them again :kid:

Stumpkiller, strongarm, I conclude 200 yards is a major stretch under hunting conditions for the 50 cal round ball, and probably the 54 as well. By "hunting conditions" I mean, higher winds, Unpredictable shifting winds, Errors in range estimation, and uphill/downhill deviations, rifle cant,as well as vegetation in the flight path. Not to mention I am using a drop tube with stop collars while out at the range, to get that 200 yard consistancy, and have wind flags to look at. I must confess to sometimes "harvesting" whereby I mark the ranges and the deer locations with wind sticks, I have gps coords, I know my load, have a ballistics chart for it, scope, hot chocolate, a windbreak, and all I am is the merchant of death, peer doen sights/scope pull the trigger, field dress, go home hang, process, wait a week for the event to clear my head and sinuses, and then marinate and grill. You can make some long shots like that, but this is a muzzle loaders forum and Ill spare you the drivel. I do know the difference between harvesting, and hunting however.

Fret not, Ill keep the sights on antlers at less than 150, and after shooting in the wind for the last few evenings, 150 yards is only for perfect conditions if at all. Ive only failed to recover one deer in my life, as a kid didnt like that feeling of shame, and cruelty much, dont want to feel it with a muzzle loader in my hands as an adult. Heck Im finding as I get older, I hunt more so I can have quality meat on the grill without getting it and its dyes and chemicals from some conglomerate merchant, and I dont like killing critters much at all. I like knowing I processed the game myself, allthough I dont like the "down to earth" aspects of that much either. Maybe I should just shoot my metal silhouettes, and eat tofu, but then that might lead to harder vices like tree hugging, Rock and roll, cell phone attached to my body and Reality Television watching.

And also, Stump-k, I am going to have to try maybe a thinner ticking patch, or investigate this muzzle coning you are talking about. .490 ball with .018 patch shoots well but is wearing me ramrod arm out. Actually having better results with Real BP, than Pyrodex, the pyro seems to dry out the bore more, and the BP stays a little greasier, and I can get the ball down the hole better. Resorted to a feeble attempt of blowing moist breath into the biggest available hole in the gun like I do my sharps, but that teeeny weeeny nipple hole on the down wind side just doesnt help my desperate attempt much. I Also cheat by using a drop tube to make sure i dont have any granules hitting the bore on its way down to the bottom. Ill shoot conicals in the hawken when I want to be a pydodex conehead. Next ML on deck is Lyman Great plains 54 caliber ball shooter, but being tempted by the stainless 54 1:48 deerstalker as well. So..narrowed the next gun down to two, radically different 54 calibers.

David, Im liking the idea of long range muzzle loading, since Im shooting wayyyy out there with my sharps, but have to do a lot of casting and reloading magic to shoot it. Been cruising the LRML site, Really like it. And yeah, youre absolutely right about Subjective. It is good there are so many variations in the Art of ML, so that to each his own, and a person can shift desires in any number of directions and not get bored. I suspect one day will own a long range ML, and likely an Inline as well, once i discover which ones do not use disk type priming, and look like my bolt action rifles. I like the encores best of the Inlines. But for now....CAPLOCKS RULE!!!!!

After several days of shooting and reading forums, lear-ned-ed a lot more. When youre a sharps shooter down to only a pound of goex, and you have to order it, you aint too proud to stoop to buying pyrodex for your muzzle loader. Its cheap and easy to get. Still have to steal a pinch or two from my sharps stash to shoot the Hawken. BP just has some kind of magic that pyro lacks doesnt it?


>>>----->Apache<-----<<<