Lyman 1860 Question

[TNGhost]

Recently felt the urge to try a percussion revolver and ended up with a Lyman 1860 . I bought it used, sight unseen and thought when I received it, what an attractive revolver. It is in beautiful condition on the outside, however when I pull the hammer back there are problems.

Frequently, not every time, the hammer stops short of hitting the nipple when the trigger is pulled(sort of like half cock but not really). The trigger also seems very light. It will fire caps placed on the nipples but not consistantly, or without a couple of hits. There also seems to be somewhat excessive endplay in the cylinder.

It is date coded AC ('77) and I think was made by Armi San Paulo.

I am not really familiar with the inner workings of these revolvers, so the question is, does it seem an easy fix, or should I send it back?

Like I said, it is in near perfect shape on the outside, and I got it for a decent price, not great, but not bad. I bought it from a reputable source and don't think I would have a problem returning it, but there's the hassle and the postage.

 

[Pete G]

If you have excessive endshake in the cylinder you are looking at a pretty expensive fix. You would probably have more money invested than if you bought a new one.

 

[Chowmif16]

Depends on what you mean by end play in the cylinder.

If you mean that with the hammer down, the cylinder will move fore and aft, that is normal.
It should not move fore and aft at full cock however.

If you mean that the arbor is loose, that is a problem.
If you don't know, the arbor is the shaft that the cylinder rotates about. These sometimes work loose as a result of using the loading lever on excessively tight fitting round balls or conicals.
If the arbor is loose, then the barrel will wiggle as well as the cylinder. It can be fixed, but the fix may not be permanent. I have an 1860 Army that had a loose arbor, and I had it repaired. It is tight now, but I am very careful with it. It was an expensive fix.

As to your hammer problem, I think we need more information. It could be a host of problems. You really need to take it apart and have a look at a few things. It could be as simple as a spent cap stuck somewhere down in the works.
Also, look at the hammer. The half and full cock notches are on the hammer. They may be worn, which could cause a very light trigger pull.

Do you mean that the hammer stops well short of the nipple, leaving a visible gap? Or does it contact the cap but fail to ignite it?
Are your caps fully seated on the nipple?
Is the mainspring loose?
Are there marks on the side of the hammer indicating that it is dragging on the hammer channel on the frame?

A bit more information would help us diagnose your issue.
I wouldn't give up on it yet.

 

[Treestalker]

Some years ago I bought an 1860 ASP from an a dealer I trusted at a gun show. the outside was beautiful, and I paid $120.00 for it, a fair deal at the time. I always take my revolvers apart and stone the innards to smooth the action. This 1860 had a hole for the trigger/cylinder stop drilled so close to the edge of the trigger metal that only a paper thin layer of steel remained! I just put it back together and sold it back to the dealer at the next gun show with a warning about the trigger problem. I got my money back and never owned an Armi San Paulo again.(I picked up a really nice Uberti 3rd model Dragoon that day.) Get your money back and buy a nice Uberti or newer Pietta revolver and don't look back. Good luck in the future, George.

 

[TNGhost]

Arbor nice and tight as is the barrel. The cylinder does have play even with the hammer cocked.

The hammer, when it doesn't drop all the way, falls to what seems the half cock position, but the cyliner isn't free like it would be when you half cock to load, etc.

It seems as though when you pull the trigger hard it drops all the way most times. If you just press it lightly, it will drop to the aforementioned half cock.

Don't see any marks on the hammer, but I haven't taken it apart yet. I am working today, will do that tomorrow.

 

[mjulihn]

Hope you are not "dry firing" your revolver and letting the hammer fall directly on a nipple. Does the 1860 have any kind of hammer spring adjustment? If so, tightening it may help.

 

[Chowmif16]

TNGhost,

Sounds like it is probably an issue with your full cock notch on the hammer, and possibly the half cock notch as well. I had a similar issue several years ago with an 1851. I don't remember which notch was the problem, but a new hammer fixed it.
When you say that the hammer will fall to near half cock with light trigger pull, it sounds to me like the full cock notch has worn, and may be rounded off. If it's a light pull, then you may not be moving the trigger much, which would then result in the trigger catching on the half cock notch. If I remember right, this is what was happening with mine.
When you take it apart, it may become obvious. Have a good look at the notches on the hammer, as well as the trigger. It's the top part of the trigger that engages the half/full cock notches on the hammer. Either could be worn or malformed. New hammers are available at just about any website that sells BP revolvers.
Check Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf, and maybe Cabelas.

As for the cylinder movement, I just had a look at one of my guns to refresh my memory. There can sometimes be a bit of play fore and aft in the cylinder at full cock. What's happening here is that at full cock, the hand is pushing forward on the cylinder. The hand has a spring on the back of it. The bolt is also holding the cylinder in rotational alignment, and to a small extent fore and aft alignment. Most bolts are rounded on the front and back, as are the cylinder stop recesses which the bolt engages. So, there is room for movement there. As long as it is not excessive, I wouldn't worry.

Does it fail to fire the caps only when it stops at or near half cock? Or does it sometimes fail to fire the caps when the hammer falls normally?
If it is failing when the hammer falls normally, then it could be a weak mainspring, or a loose mainspring.
It could also be that you have one nipple that sits a bit deeper than the rest. I have an 1860 Army that has this problem. One chamber in particular will fail to fire unless I back the nipple out a tad.

Let us know what you find when you take it apart.

Cheers,
Chowmi

 

[Terry Fairchild]

I have seven revolvers(6 Piettas, 1 Uberti) all bought new. Several months ago, I bought a used,nickel plated Armi San Marcos. This old gun behaved very similarly to yours. I stoned the internals, cleaned and oiled everthing but just couldn't get it to fire every time. Also tried different caps. Ordered a new hammer but couldn't make it fit. Concluded the gun was just worn out and gave up and traded it away. Now I understand why ASM is no longer in business!
Anyways, I watch Cabela's adds for black powder guns and they have some pretty attractive prices on them, particularly when they are on sale( often with free ship).
So now my philosophy is: " Buy new, when on sale, headaches and frustration go away"
Incidentally the last revolver I bought at Cabela's, an 1851 Sherrif's model, cost me less dough than I had in that stinker ASM and it's one of my favorites.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I see possibly three problems.

1. The hammer is worn so that when you pull the trigger, the tumbler part of the hammer that would lift the sear past the half cock notch doesn't rise far enough. When you pull the trigger hard, you pull the sear away from the tumbler and it can't catch the half cock notch.

2. The main spring is weak so you don't get enough velocity in the fall of the hammer to push the sear away and over the half cock notch and have enough power to fire the caps.

3. If it takes two or more strikes of the hammer to set off a cap on the nipple, then the gun has probably been subject to too many dry firings and the nipples are slightly mushroomed and these will have to be removed from the cylinder and a tine bit of the tip of the cone of the nipple smoothed so the caps can be fully seated. If you are using #10 caps, try using #11.

A properly set up pistol should have the hammer normally resting just about a half cap thickness above the nipple. This is hard to do, so the best solution is to never dry fire (pull the trigger when the gun is not loaded and capped) the gun.

 

[hawkeye2]

Armi San Palo became Euroarms which has been taken over by Pederosoli. They are good quality arms however they are sometimes confused with Armi San Marco which were not.

All the advise you have received is excellent and if you follow it I'm sure that you can correct the problems. I would recommend that you replace the nipples with quality aftermarket ones and get caps that fit those nipples correctly.

Not knowing what you consider a good price or how much you have in the gun if it were me I would consider returning it unless I desperately needed another learning experience. Cabela's has a Pietta '60 Army on sale for $229.99. I have bought 5 Piettas from Cabela's in the past few years including 2 '60 Armies and all have came out of the box ready to run, shoot and enjoy.

 

[TNGhost]

Sorry it took so long to get back to this, last week was a busy week. Finally found time to "play" and took apart the revolver.

First thing I noticed was that the trigger screw was bent, as it wobbled when I backed it out. The trigger itself was worn badly on the sear? end, even seemed to have the end broken off and some burrs there too. The hammer looked OK from what I could tell, comparing it to pictures of others, engagement notches looked OK, some burrs on the sides.

Cylinder and nipples appeared in good shape and I didn't notice anything obvious on the frame. The wedge was peened pretty good on both sides, mostly on the cylinder side. Barrel almost looks perfect.

I was able to order some new internals, except for the trigger and the wedge, still looking for those. Hopefully I can find a trigger, or at least one to try to fit, figure out how to do it, and get this old girl going again.

 

[M. De Land]

If worse comes to worse you can make a new trigger from scratch of O-1 or A-2 tool steel.
My Pietta would not hold an edge on full cock so I just copied the factory trigger and made a new one of A-2 and it's still going strong many years later.

 

[hawkeye2]

I have an old 58 Remington Armi San Palo (pre Euroarms) that someone built from a kit. The hammer was dead soft and the full cock notch wore out completely. It went from a decent let off to scrap metal in about 150 rounds and needed replacement. A friend fitted a current production Pietta hammer with no problems and it now has an excellent trigger pull. It wasn't necessary to change any other internals to make it work. Don't be afraid to look at other makes of parts if you need some. Cabela's sells a package with all the internals for either Colt or Remington at a reasonable price and they sometimes come up for sale. It does take a little digging to find them on their site though.