LUBEWARS REMEMBERED

[harryo]

But then, I don't let them sit outside in the elements unprotected for 3 months...guess I'll stay with NL1000 until I get stupid enough to leave my rifles outside like that

I believe the point of using extreme and abnormal conditions for such tests is to show how much corrosion protection a product really can offer. A lot of products might work well in dry, inside conditions but the only way to see how good they really are is to push them to their limits. If a product can protect bare metal which is outside exposed to the elements, then you shouldn't have a thing to worry about when it's on your rifles which are stored in a dry place inside. If I have a choice between two products that both offer corrosion protection in ideal conditions, but one will also offer protection in extreme conditions and the other doesn't, I'll choose the one that offers the extreme protection.

 

[faw3]

As I have but I do get bore rust now and then, here in East Texas the air is 100% water ! Ive had guns start to rust in a little more than a half day, couldnt even get home with them(started mopping out the bore in "crik" or lake water, then swabing down a heavy chunk of Bore But. So whats the answer??? Ive used some of those $25 oils in my Turbo Dodge Shelby and it doesnt wear and of course no rust.. got to be a way. Fred

 

[roundball]

But then, I don't let them sit outside in the elements unprotected for 3 months...guess I'll stay with NL1000 until I get stupid enough to leave my rifles outside like that

I believe the point of using extreme and abnormal conditions for such tests is to show how much corrosion protection a product really can offer. A lot of products might work well in dry, inside conditions but the only way to see how good they really are is to push them to their limits. If a product can protect bare metal which is outside exposed to the elements, then you shouldn't have a thing to worry about when it's on your rifles which are stored in a dry place inside. If I have a choice between two products that both offer corrosion protection in ideal conditions, but one will also offer protection in extreme conditions and the other doesn't, I'll choose the one that offers the extreme protection.

Duh...why, thanks for explaining that for me!
:grin:
I guess my tongue-in-cheek comment wasn't clear...I thought the test was a little odd...sort of like saying if I have a serious cut and don't get it cleaned, salved, and bandaged for 3 months it'll get infected...well yeah, I guess so.

But if I took care of the cut properly and right away it wouldn't get infected...sort of like I've taken care of my rifles for the past 15+ years using nothing but Natural Lube 1000...

 

[faw3]

And still nobody is going to say whats best? is this about right, use what works for you? Id still like to know what will protect my bore in a humid house,summer or winter.Brake cleaner like carb cleaner can be hell on some metals (discolor ect) guess if Im not going to shoot for a week Ill just pour a pint of STP, or some other 90 wt oil down the bore, as is all Im shooting is the 48" H+A and the Ithaca, and the 62 cal when a hog comes ripping stuff up(H+A uh also ),I can just put the reat in storage or sell them, I never got a answer to who made my unmarked Mowrey and .. Ive got some good ones someone should be useing since I doubt I ever will. Fred :hmm:

 

[roundball]

And still nobody is going to say whats best? is this about right, use what works for you? Id still like to know what will protect my bore in a humid house,summer or winter.Brake cleaner like carb cleaner can be hell on some metals (discolor ect) guess if Im not going to shoot for a week Ill just pour a pint of STP, or some other 90 wt oil down the bore, as is all Im shooting is the 48" H+A and the Ithaca, and the 62 cal when a hog comes ripping stuff up(H+A uh also ),I can just put the reat in storage or sell them, I never got a answer to who made my unmarked Mowrey and .. Ive got some good ones someone should be useing since I doubt I ever will. Fred :hmm:

Thought occured to me...if you have that kind of high humidity most of the time, seems like it might be worth dedicating a closet or even making a simple plywood enclosure to hold all your guns.

Then you could mount a 40 watt light bulb down towards the bottom of the enclosure (or even one of those gun safe warmer rods) and leave it on all the time...should keep everything nice and dry...of course if you have the big bucks, you could buy a big gun safe and do the same thing.

One guy I know took a horizontal freezer that the compressor had gone out on, and used it for a storage locker with a light on inside like that.

 

[harryo]

I thought the test was a little odd...sort of like saying if I have a serious cut and don't get it cleaned, salved, and bandaged for 3 months it'll get infected...well yeah, I guess so.

OK, roundball! :v Anyone who has spent any time at this forum, or several others, knows of your fierce loyalty to T/C products and Bore Butter/NL/WL. Your response to these tests is predictable. However, I, and I believe others, look at it a bit differently.

The test from the Pattagaussett Muzzleloaders site actually showed rust on the WL treated sample after only one day, and it was not outside, but in a high humidity environment. This experiment was actually the second done by the same tester. The first he did showed similar results, as have tests by Stumpkiller and others, so this isn't the only experiment that has shown WL/NL to offer less corrosion protection than other products. There have also been reports from users that also experienced problems with corrosion, while using WL/NL. Some people store rifles in for extended periods of time between use and if they live in an area that tends to be very humid, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume they could approch the test conditions and see similar results on their rifles. Maybe not as quickly but still within a time span that would cause concern.

This is why I think such tests offer valuable data. Natural lube/Wonder lube is a good patch lube because it was developed to be a patch lube, first and foremost. It does have some corrosion resisting properties, but there are products that offer much greater corrosion protection because they were developed for that purpose, first and foremost. Roundball, this debate has gone on as long as BB/NL/WL has been around. I know you have a system that works for you and that's great, but it's not for everybody. Others require, or desire, something better, which is why such discusssions will probably never end.

 

[harryo]

And still nobody is going to say whats best? is this about right, use what works for you? Id still like to know what will protect my bore in a humid house,summer or winter.

I'm not sure anyone can tell you what is best and yes, use whatever works. FYI, I have used RemOil to protect my rifles, while in storage, since it came out and it has worked admirably for me. Our winters are pretty dry but our summers are quite humid. My rifles are stored in steel cabinets, in my basement.

 

[roundball]

Anyone who has spent any time at this forum, or several others, knows of your fierce loyalty to T/C products and Bore Butter/NL/WL. Your response to these tests is predictable.

:grin: ...you're making assumptions & drawing conclusions that are not there to make...way off the mark.

My use of Natural Lube 1000 has nothing to do with TC...it's OxYoke's Wonder Lube 1000 made for TC...TC markets it under the label Natural Lube 1000...and if Remington bought it out tomorrow and called it something different I'd still keep right on using it.

And on that note, I buy/use shooting patches and wonderwads with Wonder Lube 1000 in them under the labels of CVA, Traditions, OxYoke, and Remington...whichever label I stumble actross with the lowest price is what I buy because they all have the same thing in them: OxYoke's Wonder Lube 1000.

If you'll reread my post, you'll also find no comment against any other lube...my only issue was with the 3 month long test of items being left outdoors all that time because it's not a realistic platform that correlates to how I use my muzzleloaders...the test might as well have run for 5 years as it would have no more bearing on reality than 3 months does.

Anyhow, facts are facts...I've used "OxYoke's" Wonder Lube 1000 (a.k.a. TC's Natural Lube 1000) for 15+ years, in multiple rifles, with no rust, no corrosion, etc...that's what I would want a lube to do, the lube has done it, so why would I not talk up it's excellent results? Why would I even think about changing to another lube? Does the fact that TC has it's name on OxYoke's product somehow make it no good?

So let's not accuse or imply that I'm making a false statement about a product because
of some assumed blind loyalty to some company, particulary when that company isn't even the one who manufacturers the product in the first place, comprendez?

:v

 

[netoleon]

More data is......not always better, but once you've drank from the fountain of empiricism you're doomed to a life of data dependency.

Here's a link to another lube test -[url] www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html[/url]

If that's old news, please pardon my ignorance. If all it does is start more controversies, please read my disclaimer above !

 

[roundball]

The reason for the very hot water is to heat up the metal. After you wipe the standing water off.
The hot metal will dry itself insdie and out.

Much like cast iron skillets.

Apply yer fav bore butter before it cools and yer done.

:bow:

 

[harryo]

So let's not accuse or imply that I'm making a false statement about a product because
of some assumed blind loyalty to some company, particulary when that company isn't even the one who manufacturers the product in the first place, comprendez?

Wow! :shocked2: I don't believe I ever accused you of making any false statement and I never said anything about "blind loyalty". My comment about your response being predictable was because you have repeatedly voiced your positive views about NL/WL and T/C , on this forum and several others, whenever anyone suggests anything negative about them. Hence my statement about your "fierce loyalty". It was not my intent to imply or accuse you of any false statements, and I don't think I did ,but if you feel I did, then I apologize.

Can we just agree that we look at the results of these corrosion tests differently and leave it at that? :v

 

[faw3]

Seems like a good idea its even giveing me a head ach. Im still at a loss on what to use . THE question should be what can you put down the bore right after shooting that will stop any BP corroison for a time, till you can get around to giveing it a good cleaning maybe? the old Freezer sounds good Ive got 21 rifles over the last 29,30 yrs I dont want rustting up but it seems I can put anything you name in it and ck it a yr or two later and rust!( I have tryed 1 of the auto super oils and at a yr + a half so far... and the only 2 I shoot daily never get the chance to rust up Fred. :hatsoff: (but I use 777 in those 2)

 

[Legionair]

It seems to me that since BP fouling draws moisture, any thick oil coating would "temporarily" keep that moisture from the fouling. "Temporarily"

As to the "getting around to the good cleaning",
I make time at the end of my shooting sessions for a complete disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly. It's habit for me now.

I believe the "quick cleaning till later" is only slightly better than not cleaning at all. I learned the hard way with a '58 remington revolver. Wiped it down and left it over night.

Big mistake.

Took an hour and a pint of Kroil to free up the cylinder.

The best policy (my opinion) is to stop shooting early and do the cleaning. You shoot, you scrub.

If I don't have enough time, I don't shoot that day.

I like my firearms, and learned (the hard way) that Muzzleloaders require more care than smokeless.

Treat that smokepole with care and love. In some places, they can't have 'em.

Just my thoughts....

(sorry if this is drifting off topic slightly)


Legion

 

[Cherokee]

Mike,

IM just saying brake cleaner will strip everything out. Like zonie said it will probably take the grease out of the threads in the drum and breech too.
I have not used it on my muzzleloaders yet. I havent had a problem with powder buildup, I dont shoot that much. If I wanted to really clean one out I would use it and probably lube up the drum and cleanout after I did and hit it with bore butter.
I just use hopes or butchins bore shine and havent had any problems with rust.
I have done a lot of cleaning and repairs on military arms and seen stuff worn so bad it was deemed scrap.
I had some RPK barrels from Romania with the chrome lining blown out and pitted.
We ran cleaning rods in the scrap barrels loaded with flitz. Yes I said it flitz. We then cleaned it all out with butchins bore shine and the patches were copper colored from so much neglect. These were 1966 and 1969 manufacture.
The suprising thing is after we cleaned them out they ran fine. Chipped rifling peeling chrome lined barrels and decades of use.
Its just weird how some thing work when clearly it shouldnt have.

 

[mike alexandre]

Thanks, my question started because I reasoned presumably if I can clean the bore of my flinter without water I'm one step closer to not having rust. I dont swill it in brake cleaner, merely wipe the bore with a damp rag. What comes out after using Moose Snot on patches is on two wipes of a rag. The other thing was that I've recently come across a supply of a good cleaner at next to no cost. Some of the rifles being shot here if being shot again the next day are given a quick spray of Ballistol and left dirty, doesnt seem to affect the accuracy either.

 

[Cherokee]

I wanted to add. The brake cleaner is in a spray can and not brake fluid. Just incase there was any doubt

 

[AZ-Robert]

Seems like a good idea its even giveing me a head ach. Im still at a loss on what to use . THE question should be what can you put down the bore right after shooting that will stop any BP corroison for a time, till you can get around to giveing it a good cleaning maybe?

One of the old geez... ah, guys that shoots with us during the local ML group's monthly shoots brings along a one gallon bottle of distilled water he buys for 64 cents at Wally World. He likes the distilled variety because he knows exactly what is in it. When he is done shooting, he sticks the ol' toothpick in the vent hole, fills the barrel about 2/3 full of water, covers the muzzle with his thumb, swishes it around a little, then pours out the water. Does that twice, then fills the bore with water, patches the ramrod and runs it down the barrel until it fights back, removes the toothpick and forces the water out through the vent. Then he runs a couple of patches through it to get out most of the water, shoots a spray of WD40 in after the last drying patch, and then takes it home. Takes him at most ten minutes, the water rinse goes a long way towards getting rid of the salts that cause the corrosion, and clean up at home (which involves removing the lock, more patches down the bore, etc) is that much quicker with all the big nasty stuff left at the range.

But the bottom line on rust prevention really is what works best for you. Personal preference is a big part of that, but so are local conditions. Here where 20% humidity is a bad day, I store my guns with bone dry barrels after running a clean patch soaked in WD40 down the bore, just to chase away any last bits of water.

I used to use an alcohol soaked patch to check them for rust a day or two later... never found any on the first check, but I soon discovered there was enough water in the alcohol to cause a "flash rust". I stopped using alcohol and now use WD40 on the patch when doing my post-cleaning follow up check too.

If I lived near coastal Texas where you need gills to breath, I would use RemOil to give them a light coat before putting them away. If conditions are as bad as you say they are, you'll probably have to reapply that oil from time to time, as it will evaporate given enough time.

 

[harryo]

Im still at a loss on what to use . THE question should be what can you put down the bore right after shooting that will stop any BP corroison for a time, till you can get around to giveing it a good cleaning maybe?

I wouldn't do this. I have heard of others doing it, with every intention of doing a thorough cleaning later, forgetting about it and ending up with a bore full of rust. If I can't take the time to clean my rifles right after shooting, then I won't shoot them.

 

[harryo]

One of the old geez... ah, guys that shoots with us during the local ML group's monthly shoots brings along a one gallon bottle of distilled water he buys for 64 cents at Wally World. He likes the distilled variety because he knows exactly what is in it. When he is done shooting, he sticks the ol' toothpick in the vent hole, fills the barrel about 2/3 full of water, covers the muzzle with his thumb, swishes it around a little, then pours out the water. Does that twice, then fills the bore with water, patches the ramrod and runs it down the barrel until it fights back, removes the toothpick and forces the water out through the vent. Then he runs a couple of patches through it to get out most of the water, shoots a spray of WD40 in after the last drying patch, and then takes it home.

This actually sounds like a pretty thorough cleaning of the bore to me. I don't think I would worry about the distilled water, though. I can't imagine that tap water, which is good enough to drink, can have anything in it that would hurt a bore.

 

[mike alexandre]

Yes , thanks I picked up the variation. Brake fluid is hygroscopic so I'd be back where I started. :rotf: