LUBEWARS REMEMBERED

[Zonie]

As some of you know, Stumpkiller has done extensive work on testing the anti rust capabilities of various things.
This was done when he was developing his Moose Milk.

Notice that some of these tests were done using steel intentionally covered with black powder fouling.

Some interesting bits from his old posts:


Here is my plan for the test:
1.) The steel has a protective oil coating applied by Olympic. I will first mount the strips on the board, wipe them down with acetone. Sand down to fresh steel with a drum sander and then wipe again with acetone.
2.) I will designate the test regions with a line from a "Marks-A-Lot" indelible marker and a number above each region. 1-12 with a "C" over each of the control regions.
3.) Each region will then be wiped with clean tap water (well water - no flouride or chlorination). Test materials will then be rubbed well into the surface of each region and the excess wiped off with a paper towel.
4.) The board will then be hung against the side of my house in a three-sides-open car port that has a roof but a dirt floor.
5.) The next day each region will be inspected for signs of rust.
6.) A powder charge of 20 gr FFFg will be placed on each region (except on two of the four control areas) in turn and ignited. The residue from this will be wiped three times with a dry paper towel, noting if the original coatings had any effect on 'softening' the residue or leaving less after the third wipe. A second charge will be set off in each region. This will be wiped off thoroughly with a paper towel coated with the test media for that region, but the same surface of the paper towel will be down and the fouling will be smeared in. The board will be left alone for four hours.
7.) The regions will then be wiped again with a paper towel containing the test media, followed by a dry towel, and then more test media will be wiped in and given a smooth coating, rubbed clean of excess lube.
8.) Observations will be made daily but no further applications will be made. The trial period will be one month.

THE MATERIALS TO BE TESTED

Lehigh Valley Lube, Natural Lube 1000+, Castor Oil, Mutton Tallow, Olive Oil, My Grease Lube Mix, Witch Hazel, T/C #13 Solvent, WD-40, My Liquid Lube Mix, Murphy's Oil Soap, CLP Breakfree
_____________________________________

Here's a shocker (at least to me). The first spot on my test plate to begin rusting - even before the two control areas that were just rinsed with water - was the T/C Number 13 section! That was after one night outside but covered (under a carport). I was not pleased at all. Granted, they make no claims of preservation or rust prevention - but I would have hoped it at least would beat cold water.
__________________________
Day one. T/C Number 13 solvent begins to show rust
Day two. ditto
Day three. Mutton Tallow developed an even coat of rust overnight. I'm amazed that the plain water rinse on bare steel still has not. __________________________________________
(Stumpkiller added a few additional things to test):Here's a list of the coatings being tested.

1 Lehigh Valley Lube
2 Olive Oil
3 WD-40
4 Natural Lube 1000 +
5 My grease lube mix #4
6 My liquid lube & solvent mix (a "moose milk" type)
7 Glycerine
7-1/2 Control
8 Castor Oil
9 Witch Hazel
10 Murphy's Oil Soap
11 Mutton Tallow
12 T/C Number 13 Solvent
13 CLP Breakfree
14 Control
15 Hoppe's Lubricating Oil
16 Beeswax (rubbed in dry w/rag)
17 Beeswax/Mutton Tallow/Crisco (equal parts mixture)

The last one was my standard lube for 15+ years before I 'discovered' Natural Lube. I still use it to coat the edges of my fiber shot wads for smoothbores.
____________________________
1 Lehigh Valley Lube

 

[Jon in MI]

Thanks for reposting this. I had forgotten most of the info. :thumbsup:

Jon

 

[JimG]

Did anyone do a real long term test on the "8 parts Castor Oil/2 parts Beeswax/1 part Murphys Oil Soap mix (I think this was the 'Grease mix #4)? Was this intended as a general lube and swabbing compound or just a bore protectant? Newbies like me would like to know. :grin:

 

[Cherokee]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place. I just thought some people might learn from my hands on experience.
I have used the CLP (Break free) cleaner/lubricant.
I even ran a business selling the stuff and it flew off the shelves.
I had a business that I supplied all kinds of items that were hard to find for individual soldiers or even units. I would always pick up tips or tricks from every type of military unit you can think of. EOD to Navy SEALS to Air Force Doctors.
Anyway in my experince with Military weapons its manure!
I have seen it burn off full auto weapons with just light shooting a few hundred rounds.
I never cared for the stuff and I had guys asking for it. I sold it in the large bottles that were harder to find. I figure most of it was on weapons that saw light use.
My subsitute was Mobile 1 synthetic motor oil. One quart lifetime supply! That stuff will not burn off.
I have ran a thousand rounds through an AK 47 and the stuff was still there doing its job. I have burnt the wood handguards firing so many rounds just testing things.

I would tear down my M-4 or AK and use break cleaner with the long spray tube. I would strip an M-4 and fire it right into the gas tube and blast it out till it ran clean and the barrel.
It blasts all the manure out of those areas you cant get to with a brush or patch. Then I would run a bore snake throught the barrel about two times and then Mobile 1 on patches in the barrel to help fight any rust.
I have never seen any bore wear or problems from using the brake cleaner. The only thing right off you could see was it would really knock any oils out of the parked finish on military weapons. Some oil on a rag and it was good to go.
This would cut my cleaning time in half.

Now as far as using these on muzzleloaders I would maybe use the break cleaner on a once a year extreme cleaning because this will blast the bore butter and all out of a barrel.

Hope this helps and not off the topic.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

If you own a AK-47 Id not be firing it. They are getting harder and harder to find. The last one was made in 1961.

If your talking about a cheap knock off Norinco AKS.
Then you might post it as such.

Oh yeah. CLP sucks compared to LSA for dumping into a hot fully automatic firearm.

Beside petrolium base lubes and burnt black podwer dont get along.

 

[Cherokee]

The AK's were of all types and makes. Everything from Full auto RPK's of Romanian manufacture to Egyptian Maadis and Norinco's. All were factory f/a manufacture for military use.
I also had some AK-74 civilian copies from Romania.

 

[Zonie]

I hope we are talking about ole Allen Knutsons (AK) and Russell Pullman Kumpany's (RPK)muzzleloading rifles. :grin: I think they were working on some kind of gun that would pour it's own powder down the barrel, locate the patch and ball on the muzzle and then somehow shove them down the barrel all by itself.
They almost succeeded with the Semi Auto version. You had to yell at the loader "LOAD THE DAM THING!" and he would then load if for you.
The fully automatic version didn't pan out though.
Seems he kept falling asleep rather than taking the initiative and automatically load the gun.

 

[faw3]

Same for the org MAC 10s 45 and 9 and my first love he 380 M11, all great ML guns (the M11 is great for gunfights in a phonebooth) , Zonie thats the 1st laugh Ive had since before Christmas(this one has been hell) THANKS TONS :bow: Fred

 

[mike alexandre]

Cherokee. Are you saying that brake cleaner should not be used on a regular basis in muzzle loaders. I got fed up with coming back to my guns two days after cleaning and finding a light coating of rust in the barrel. Having read other theories that soap and water should never go down a barrel I've been using brake cleaner to take the worst residue out and then finishing with Ballistol untill the patch is clean. Your thoughts please.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Having read other theories that soap and water should never go down a barrel . . .

Huh? Throw that book away.

I do this even with centerfires when I shoot corrosive ammo. I have guns the have had soap and water bore-baths at least monthly for 10 plus years, weekendly through the winter. One I have had since 1982 and it gets soap and water after being shot. I now do this with a gun that cost me as much as 16 weeks of salary at my first post-college full time job (back when you could buy a nice, new car for $2,000). There is no better way to clean black powder fouling than soap and water: hot, warm or cold is up to you. An alcohol wipe prior to a penetrating oil wipe is enough to displace any remaining water. Then, a dry wipe and another alcohol wipe before pre-lubing when it comes time to shoot again will clear out the oil (which can form tar if left in the bore).

 

[roundball]

There is no better way to clean black powder fouling than soap and water

Yup...my regimen has been steaming hot soapy water followed by a clean hot water rinse, on a dozen+ muzzloaders for 15+ years, and they're perfect.

When finished with the rinse water I'm fanatical about quickly getting them 100% bone dry so they don't flash rust....and then heavily plaster the bore walls with natural lube 1000.

If metal is 100% dry and then every square inch is 100% coated with lube so it's insulated from any air contact, it cannot rust.

 

[faw3]

Ive read something about the same lately but it was dont use detergent because of some castic stuff or other..what ever. fred

 

[mike alexandre]

Well thats two very definate ideas, but is brake cleaner likely to do the job or cause harm ?

 

[roundball]

Well thats two very definate ideas, but is brake cleaner likely to do the job or cause harm ?

I've never used brake cleaner on muzzleloaders, don't know...obviously it's made to use on metal of course, so it won't harm metal, but it might attack bluing or stock finishes, dunno

 

[Swampman]

Tepid water actually works better than hot soapy water. It's all you need.

 

[Zonie]

The only harm I can think of from using brake cleaner is:

1. It is not going to desolve the corrosive salts left by the black powder. These salts can attract moisture from the air which will activate them.
Wiping with Ballistol not will reduce this tendency. Before you guys jump on me, remember Ballistol is sometimes mixed with water to make a patch lube. Better yet, do what I just did and pour a little Ballistol in a container and add some water. The ballistol not only does not resist the water, but it instantly forms a emulsion. I believe this is why every gun bore I protected with Ballistol all developed a layer of rust in their bores within 3 weeks (and I live in Arizona).

2. The brake cleaner will destroy any and all of the grease or oil that is in the breech plug threads and in the drum threads (if the gun has a drum).
This will make the threads susceptible to rusting and eventual failure.

I agree with the other folks. Use soapy water followed by clear water.
Dry the bore and apply a water displacing oil like BC Sheath to drive the water out of the threads and provide a rust proof protection.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

The reason for the very hot water is to heat up the metal. After you wipe the standing water off.
The hot metal will dry itself insdie and out.

Much like cast iron skillets.

Apply yer fav bore butter before it cools and yer done.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Thins the greases and oils and dissolves the salts and soaps better, too.

 

[Sully]

Zonie, I am sure you are aware of this but thought I'd post it for others. Look at the following for a comparison of different lubes.
[url] http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html[/url]

 

[roundball]

Not responding to you, just commenting on the strange little test he ran there...

By contrast, I've used nothing but Natural Lube 1000 for over 15 years on over a dozen muzzleloaders...rifles are in perfect condition.

But then, I don't let them sit outside in the elements unprotected for 3 months...guess I'll stay with NL1000 until I get stupid enough to leave my rifles outside like that

:shake: