Looking for info on German Jaeger Rifle

[BobKrohn]

Want to find approx date of manufacture and value.
You can see where Hawken Guns got their influence from.

Thanks for any help.

German Jaeger (Hunter's) Rifle
Made by CHRISTOPH FUNK in Suhl, Germany.
He started the business in 1835. By 1945 it was just about gone. Totally gone by 1965.
They were known for making fine hunting rifles and two or three barrel rifle-rifle and rifle-shotgun firearms.
Only 2,229 units were manufactured between 1924 and 1942
Backlock action percussion cap lock with mechanical external hammer block safety.
Double set trigger.
Swamped barrel (i.e. middle part of barrel is narrower than breech or muzzle)
Patent or Hooked Breech.
Also, an interesting feature of the patent breech is that there is a steel stud or pin that extends from the rearmost part of the breech, inside the barrel, into the chamber where the powder would be.
It is about an inch long. Maybe 1/4in dia. I have never seen or heard of this before.

Barrel is rifled at approximately .52 caliber. 29" long. 1" across flats at muzzle.
Flat "shotgun" style butt.
Patchbox
Adjustable rear sight and what looks like provisions for a peep sight at backstrap.

This rifle was brought back as a "souvenir" of WWII when all weapons were confiscated from civilians.
That is why there is a repaired cut to the upper part of the full length stock.
The stock had to be shortened to fit in a duffel bag or trunk for the trip home.

Was a gift from a family member that was in the 34th Division in Europe in WWII.

This was my first ML rifle that got me started in early 1970's. Not fired since then when I got a T/C Hawken.
Target pics:
Turkey Head: One shot offhand 50yds. Won turkey for Thanksgiving
Bullseye: 10 shot from sandbag rest at 50yds.
Gun was finicky shooter hence the T/C.



On the three exposed flats of the octagonal barrel, midway between the rear sight and breech are three inscriptions.

GUSSSTAHL (engraved) (translation = cast steel)

CHRISTOPH FUNK IN SUHL (engraved and gold filled) (the maker in the city of Suhl, Germany)

ENGLISHER (engraved) (translation = English model or style)



Serial Number stamped on Buttplate = 13523

 

[bpesteve]

A beautiful rifle! The best clue to the age of that one is the breech post you describe. Prior to the invention of the Minie hollow-based bullet there were several experimental systems developed in the 1840s in search of a way to easily load bare, undersized bullets into a rifled barrel and yet have them fully engage the rifling when fired.

One of these methods was the brainchild of of a Colonel Thouvenin of the French artillery who came up with this pillar, or 'tige', extending from the breech plug. The idea was that an appropriate powder charge would be loaded filling the barrel to approximately the height of the post, then an undersized bullet would be rammed down the barrel and hammered on to the post expanding it into the grooves. It evidently worked OK as the French adopted this for their military rifles in 1846. See Hoyem's "History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition" vol 1, chapter 5 for a discussion of several styles of early ball seats.

Since Captain Claude-Etienne Minie's slightly later invention was so much simpler and effective, the 'tige' system did not persist much past the early 1850s. My guess is that your rifle dates from 1845-1850 based on that.

Value? Gosh, on a piece like this you really ought to get an appraisal. Several of the major gun auction houses (James Julia, J.C.Devine, Rock Island, etc) offer free appraisal services; that's probably what I would do.

 

[bpesteve]

There's also a pretty good write up of general Chistoph Funk history by Peter Lund on the web at:

http://www.bryndumlund.dk/index.php?id=3

 

[Pittsburghunter]

I am no expert at all but it looks like it was mfg later to me. It has a back action lock, checkering and what looks like modern lettering.

Then again I know nothing about this stuff. Just guessing.

 

[BobKrohn]

the 'tige' system

That's good info! Also, may assist in estimating birthdate. They probably would not have gone to the effort of using that system after the Minie Ball became common.

It's always interesting how humans invent complicated "Rube Goldberg-esque" or childishly impractical ways of doing things and then someone finally comes up with a simple solution that seems so obvious afterward. An important lesson to learn early in life.

Also, I had already found the Peter Lund site and emailed him.

I really appreciate each of the replies I have received here. Thanks

 

[BobKrohn]

I found this recent thread on the Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain site:
http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1219394113/1

They seem to think that right at the introduction of percussion ignition, the back action started to be adopted as superior to front action locks.
About 1820-30.

This site:
http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/french.htm

Says that the French military (no rude comments please) adopted the back action by 1840.

The Cristoph Funk company was a high end, low volume (kinda like Ferrari) producer of fine costom hunting rifles. This may account for the detailed features you noted. I've seen early 20th century cartridge drillings by this maker (but in great condition) listed for $10,000-$20,000+ range.

With the info provided by "bpesteve" I think it's fairly safe to say it's from that early period.
Or...maybe it was a "re-creation" like we see here with Kentucky and Hawken guns.

This researching is very enjoyable and I'm learning STUFF. Thanks.

I think the hammer blocking safety should have been a good thing but never see it.

 

[tg]

that is a fine looking gun, I am not sure I see the connection to the "Hawken' type guns though, architecture is quite different, much more robust and differnt drop and buttshape

 

[BobKrohn]

From http://www.americanlongrifles.com/american-longrifle-kentucky-rifle-story.htm

"No technological development occurs in a vacuum, and the American longrifle as a technological as well as an artistic development was no exception. It is generally accepted that the American longrifle evolved from the Jaeger rifle brought to the colonies by German gunsmiths in the early 1700’s and most certainly imported in some quantity along with English arms up until the American Revolution. The Jaeger was a short, stocky, usually large caliber, flintlock rifle designed for hunting by the well to do in the fields and forests of Europe."

Looks to me that "American Mountain Rifle" was just evolving long barrel eastern hunting guns and reverting back to the Jaeger relatives, i.e. "short, stocky, usually large caliber"

Most really early actual Hawken guns were full stock. This was carried on by them into the later mountainman guns. Half-stock was a later development.
Here's one (caplock too, although many flinters were converted) at the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody,WY
http://www.bbhc.org/collections/BBHC/CFM_ObjectPage.cfm?museum=CFM&VarObjectKey=38459

Even the trigger guard is similar.

 

[tg]

" It is generally accepted that the American longrifle evolved from the Jaeger rifle brought to the colonies by German gunsmiths in the early 1700’s and most certainly imported in some quantity along with English arms up until the American Revolution"

Many gun buffs feel that is a bit over simplified as there are rifles from the lowlands and England pre F&I which is also pre "American longrifle" and infuences from several countrys were melded into what was to become the American longrifle we just don't have any early fully developed ones to really compare the various traits they shared with their ancestors so to speak,not trying to pick nits just looking at a much broader picture/developmental concept than the typical Jaegar to American longrifle evolution. It is an interesting subject with many twists and turns let's take a very early long barreled European fowler style and add rifleing, and a cheek rest for aid in sighting, lots of possibilities and places to go with the what, how and when, I think that new ideas are being kicked around all the time as new evidence and connectuonsand surviving specimens are found, just to say the American Longrifle evolved from the short German hunting gun fails to cover all the bases IMHO, it may be more closely related to the long barreled German hunting or target guns :v no flame just some thoughts.

 

[BobKrohn]

Obviously, I must have accidentally stepped on one of your sore toes. There must have been a previous "debate" that you got into. I really can make little sense of your reply. If you can't see any similarity whatever or accept generally accepted common historical wisdom then I am helpless. It probably wouldn't help to point out that the Hawken brothers were descended from a long line of Swiss gunsmiths either. (You know, that small country that is right next to Germany and where most speak German) There is no sense discussing this anymore as you have personally held convictions that are "different". A contrarian looking for an argument with me.
I will not engage in an intellectual battle with an unarmed person. Sorry.

 

[Harddog]

Bob,

Wow!! Only 8 posts to your credit and you have already got you britches in a knot and insulted another poster. Way to go.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The one sure thing about common historical wisdom is that it evolves as new information comes to light--such as the fact that there were many long barreled Germanic hunting rifles as well as the shorter "Jaeger" type. And that in America, being the "melting pot" that it was/is, the melding of several firearm types was almost inevitable. There is certainly room for new research into the long rifle's lineage at this time.

There really isn't a lot of room for rude and snide comments from folks who show up with their heads filled with dogma or dog something. You owe tg an apology as your remarks were totally uncalled for. Shame on you! :nono:

 

[44-henry]

As far as the value goes it is pretty much worth what someone would pay for it. I wouldn't have a hard time spending $1000 on it, but I would start asking a lot more questions before I would go beyond that point.

Aside from that it really doesn't matter, your comments were rude and totally off base and I agree that if you want to contribute much more to this forum you really should offer tg and apology.

 

[BobKrohn]

Thank You!
I'll consider that a compliment.

 

[BobKrohn]

The one sure thing about common historical wisdom is that it evolves as new information comes to light--such as the fact that there were many long barreled Germanic hunting rifles as well as the shorter "Jaeger" type. And that in America, being the "melting pot" that it was/is, the melding of several firearm types was almost inevitable. There is certainly room for new research into the long rifle's lineage at this time.

There really isn't a lot of room for rude and snide comments from folks who show up with their heads filled with dogma or dog something. You owe tg an apology as your remarks were totally uncalled for. Shame on you! :nono:

My goodness, this forum is loaded with people, like tg, who are eager to argue for the sake of arguing. Like the others, you can not cite any references with your points of view as a means of demonstating that there is anybody else in the real world that shares your view. You have no purpose other than to pontificate, sit back and wait to get someone to rise to the bait. I don't respect anyone who talks "off the top of their head" and doesn't do research (or thinking) before answering a question. Nothing tg said really helped in terms of my initial post. He was looking to argue, as are you. His comment "no flame just some thoughts" indicates he considered his post WAS a flame or attack on me. I think it's called "passive aggressive behavior"
Please, if YOU can't make informative, thoughtful, constructive, helpful comments, (like bpesteve) spare everyone and don't post to this topic anymore.

 

[Semisane]

Dang Bob, you sure do come a-packing attitude. :shocked2: Ought to tone it down a bit.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Guess we didn't heap enough praise on your rifle and acknowledge that it is the progenitor of the Hawken. Left you with an intellectual wedgie I suppose. With your constipated thinking that could be a problem. We were supposed to be dazzled by your knowledge and your rifle and we weren't. So sorry. By the way, how many forums have you been kicked off of for being such an arrogant and pedantic snot? I apologize in advance in the unlikely event that you actually comprehend my post and have your feelings hurt by it. We are all gentlemen here--or we were 'til you came clomping in. Anyway welcome to the forum--it looks like you are going to be lots of fun to have around! :thumbsup:

 

[BobKrohn]

Your rant is simply proving my point, thank you. :bow:

With your prolific (i.e. excessive, about two per day for 4 years) number of posts it clear you really enjoy having an audience and pontificating to the masses. :yakyak:

News flash: the Emperor has no clothes!

I still see from you no meaningful links, references, useful information, etc. which is what I asked for in the first place.
Too much like work.

When Pittsburghunter said:
"I am no expert at all but it looks like it was mfg later to me. It has a back action lock, checkering and what looks like modern lettering.
Then again I know nothing about this stuff. Just guessing."
I did some research.(hint)
Cited some links that informed me and hopefully him about the chronology of back action locks which I didn't know before.

THAT is the point of this whole exercise.

You're the guy we all see in the McDonald's waiting for some poor guy who wants to relax and just read the newspaper so you can intrude and start a longwinded debate about some article on the front page. I sympathize with you and understand the behavior.

Enough already, I asked you PLEASE don't post to this topic. I don't want to argue.

 

[Zonie]

I gather from your negative responses to the ideas put forth that there may have been several different factors which go beyond the Jaeger which led to the creation of the Pennsylvania rifle and the Hawken brothers rifle that you do not agree?

That is your right however it is not your right to make rude or derogatory comments concerning the other members of this Forum and it will stop.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

But I like you. You have such a sweet temperament. I actually do know quit a a bit about Jaeger rifles and the early American longrifle. Fifty years of muzzleloading and research has been very useful and enjoyable. There are many knowledgeable people on this forum and we are happy to talk rifles with each other and any one who comes along--providing that they can be civil.

Anyway, you have a fine, late period rifle there. The back action lock indicates that it was produced long after the Hawken rifle had been around in its final form. It appears that at some point the rifle had a tang sight. Do you know if this is so or do you have the sight? This can be of use for dating purposes. Another interesting item is the number on the butt piece. This seems to be made up of modern style numbers. But these rifles were made long after breechloaders became popular so that isn't of much value in dating. Tradition died hard in Europe and these rifles and the Scheutzen rifles were treasured for their accuracy and heritage connections. A true Jaeger would use a tight fitting ball and a relatively light powder charge by our standards. I recall firing a .65 caliber Jaeger that used a ball of about 400 grains and a powder charge of 65 grains of FFg. This was a flintlock of AWI period and that was the load it liked. Depending on the rate of twist and the depth of the rifling, your rifle may have one of these traditonal barrels and some experimenting may yield a very accurate load.

Regarding the "tige" system, it didn't last long. The Minie was the final nail in its coffin, but the system was deeply flawed anyway. The tige or pin was in the powder charge and suffered each time the gun was fired. The hot gases eroded the pin and it quickly broke. The rifle could still be fired but accuracy was lost. I hope you find this of help. :v