Issac Haines build question - barrel/lock alignment

[Elmhurst80]

Long time ago I picked up a partially inlet Isaac Haines stock as well as the other parts necessary to complete this build. I've made it to the point of installing the breech plug and beginning to inlet the tang. I did have the foresight to mark the bottom of the barrel to show the final depth of the plug. While working on the tang inlet, I decided to put the lock into position and check the pan alignment to the depth of the plug and lo and behold, the pan lines up perfectly with the middle of the doggone plug! Now, I'm fairly certain that what I have to do now is inlet the barrel back further into the stock. I would think I wouldn't want to shorten the plug anymore, right? Kinda don't see any other options, but then again, maybe I am missing something. The masking tape on the barrel marks the front of the plug depth. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Flintandsteel]

You’re on the right track. Move the barrel back, don’t do anything silly like notching the plug. Do it right, and move the barrel back.
The problem with precarves.

 

[IanH]

Back about half an inch I'd say. Do go ahead and properly thin, bend, and shape that tang before you trouble with inletting it. Isaac Haines typically used narrow tangs with the back corners scalloped and the tip rounded.

If you plan to install a flash hole liner now or later, make sure the center is at least 3/16" in front of the face of the breech plug to allow for the threaded hole to not interfere with the breech plug.

If you don't fix the tang, it will look like this one that I took over after someone else inlet the barrel and tang. The tang does not need to be 5/16" thick, either, thin it to about 1/4" at the thickest and narrow it no more narrow than the top barrel flat at the front and allow it to flare ever so slightly to the rear.

This more like what you want:

This isn't quite the right tang shape but it's the only photo I have handy. Look up original Isaac Haines builds on the web and you'll find good tang shape photos.

 

[Elmhurst80]

Well guys, thanks so much for the advice. I sat down and had a cup of coffee and came to the conclusion that what I really need to do is completely inlet the lock plate, then I will have a much better guide. It will also support the thin bit of wood that runs between the barrel and the cock. Spent a few hours on that this afternoon, I'd say I'm most of the way there, but decided to give my eyes a rest for a while. IanH, I had never thought to thin out the tang, I will most definitely be working on that next, once the lock plate is finished.

 

[IanH]

It's hard to tell from the picture but your tang does appear a bit thick.

Please don't do this backwards, even though you are at a disadvantage with the pre-inlet. Inlet the barrel and tang FIRST, keeping in mind the height of the pan and vertical center of your barrel. Your lock inlet is already positioned so the barrel must be moved to align the flash hole with the pan vertically and fore/aft. Somehow you have to bend your tang and make sure it fits the stock. If the tang is proud it can be filed down some at the top to meet the wood, but not too much, so hopefully there is enough wood there to sink the tang when the flash hole is vertically aligned with the pan properly.

Do the barrel first, THEN finish sinking the lock to meet the barrel. The lock bolster must fit tight and flush to the side barrel flat and at the same time the perimeter of the lock plate inlet must support the lock plate so it doesn't tip or angle away from the barrel flat when the screws are tightened. The plane of the side barrel flat must match the plane of the lock plate inlet, even though they are at different depths. You cannot properly inlet the plate unless the barrel is in its FINAL position in the stock. Make sense? If you inlet the bottom or one end of the lock plate too deeply it will not be supported properly when tightened down and you'll get gaps between the lock bolster and barrel that collect fouling and let junk down into the lock mortice. I know it's in shadow, but look closely at the LH Haines gun above and note how the lock bolster makes an air-tight seal against the barrel flat. This face-to-face fit coincides with the perimeter of the lock plate inlet in the wood so it plunks down flat and fully supported against the barrel and stock simultaneously and tightening the lock screws only pull it down tight without tipping or flexing the lock plate.

 

[Elmhurst80]

It's hard to tell from the picture but your tang does appear a bit thick.

Please don't do this backwards, even though you are at a disadvantage with the pre-inlet. Inlet the barrel and tang FIRST, keeping in mind the height of the pan and vertical center of your barrel. Your lock inlet is already positioned so the barrel must be moved to align the flash hole with the pan vertically and fore/aft. Somehow you have to bend your tang and make sure it fits the stock. If the tang is proud it can be filed down some at the top to meet the wood, but not too much, so hopefully there is enough wood there to sink the tang when the flash hole is vertically aligned with the pan properly.

Do the barrel first, THEN finish sinking the lock to meet the barrel. The lock bolster must fit tight and flush to the side barrel flat and at the same time the perimeter of the lock plate inlet must support the lock plate so it doesn't tip or angle away from the barrel flat when the screws are tightened. The plane of the side barrel flat must match the plane of the lock plate inlet, even though they are at different depths. You cannot properly inlet the plate unless the barrel is in its FINAL position in the stock. Make sense? If you inlet the bottom or one end of the lock plate too deeply it will not be supported properly when tightened down and you'll get gaps between the lock bolster and barrel that collect fouling and let junk down into the lock mortice. I know it's in shadow, but look closely at the LH Haines gun above and note how the lock bolster makes an air-tight seal against the barrel flat. This face-to-face fit coincides with the perimeter of the lock plate inlet in the wood so it plunks down flat and fully supported against the barrel and stock simultaneously and tightening the lock screws only pull it down tight without tipping or flexing the lock plate.

Makes perfect sense. I did get the lock inlet around the perimeter, but stopped well short of inletting to the final depth. Have since moved on to thinning the tang and then will proceed with inletting the barrel/tang.

 

[IanH]

It helps to go ahead and bend the tang to the approximate contour of the stock and also file some draft on the sides of tang and breech plug so it's easier to inlet snugly. Once you get it nearly sunk down all the way you can determine if the excess metal needs to come off the top or bottom of the tang, or both. Save yourself some metal to work with on top as you may need to file off a bunch there to match the stock profile behind the breech.

 

[SDSmlf]

Makes perfect sense. I did get the lock inlet around the perimeter, but stopped well short of inletting to the final depth. Have since moved on to thinning the tang and then will proceed with inletting the barrel/tang.

I would suggest leaving the inletting of the tang until you have set the barrel back into final position and inlet the lockplate. With a pre-carve the only easy adjustment you can make is barrel position. Once the tang is inlet, if adjustment is required, the difficulty level goes up.

 

[IanH]

^^^ YES!

 

[billraby]

This is one of the many reasons why building from a blank is easier than from a pre-carved stock.

 

[Elmhurst80]

This is one of the many reasons why building from a blank is easier than from a pre-carved stock.

I'm definitely getting that impression. Only other builds I've done so far are kits. Won't make that mistake again.

 

[IanH]

Bill's 100% right. I built one from a board and one from a standing dead tree, two Kibler kits, and now working on a lesser kit with much of the same issues you are having. If you do it in the right sequence and get each step correct, you will have a MUCH easier time getting it together from a good piece of lumber than from a "precarved" blank.

 

[Clark Badgett]

You’re on the right track. Move the barrel back, don’t do anything silly like notching the plug. Do it right, and move the barrel back.
The problem with precarves.

While I don’t disagree with you, but can we really say “do it right” when the original builders often notched the plugs? Maybe we should just say, “do it better.”

 

[SDSmlf]

While I don’t disagree with you, but can we really say “do it right” when the original builders often notched the plugs? Maybe we should just say, “do it better.”

Yep. May as well drill at an angle through the breech plug and skip using a liner. Just isn’t as good. So much better than moving a barrel back during a build, because it’s been done in the past.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Clark, I get it.
But just because they didn’t do it right, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t.
My Mom used to say…..just because your brother jumps off the roof, doesn’t mean you should.
That groove is a logistics night mare. Hard to clean and a source of trouble.
Ask me how I know…..

 

[Clark Badgett]

Clark, I get it.
But just because they didn’t do it right, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t.
My Mom used to say…..just because your brother jumps off the roof, doesn’t mean you should.
That groove is a logistics night mare. Hard to clean and a source of trouble.
Ask me how I know…..

But was it incorrect. The French were known to but some rather large grooves on the faces of musket plugs and they had to fire repeatedly or were rejected. And how does it make clean up hard. Water softens and removes the fowling, proper cleaning takes care of the rest. Modern methods may be better to our minds but we just play with these guns, they had to survive with them.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I shortened a plug first when it was a green mountain barrel with one of those long plugs, my Haines has a Rice barrel, I moved the barrel around on it for the right touch hole alignment.

I do the barrel first and then the tang, I have the barrel and tang inletted and the barrel pinned before I inlet a lock.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Ok Clark, tell me how you’re going to clean a groove in a breechplug?
We can agree to disagree, and it really doesn’t matter how the French got away with it. The best manner is obviously a flat breech face.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Ok Clark, tell me how you’re going to clean a groove in a breechplug?
We can agree to disagree, and it really doesn’t matter how the French got away with it. The best manner is obviously a flat breech face.

Do you not know how to use water and a ball of tow? How do we get fowling out of the grooves that we call rifling?

It’s seems we make muchado over nothing.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Obviously I’m not going to change your mind. I don’t want an unclean able groove in my breech plug.
Don’t care if that works for you.
The old adage applies here.
My mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts.