IS IT SOUP YET?

[Zonie]

Over the years, I've heard about the horrors of 4F powder turning to soup in the pan so I decided to run a little test.
Living in Arizona where the humidity seldom gets above 40% I decided I needed to build a test chamber and subject some Elephant 4F powder to 100 percent humidity (or as near as I could get to it).

With this goal set, I stole my wifes Fruit Ripener, some aluminum foil, a stainless vegetable steamer rack, some very soaked paper towels and some duct tape.
The duct tape was needed to plug up all of the vent holes in the ripener.

Placing the soggy paper towels on the bottom with the steamer rack on top of them I placed a piece of aluminum foil with about 10 grains of Elephant FFFFg powder in the rack.
I made a very loose tent over the powder to keep condinsation from dripping on the sample, then sprayed the inside of the cover with water and sealed it up.
Placing this outside in the 106 degree summer air I let it sit overnight. The low temperature got down to about 86 degrees F.

The test chamber looks like this:

After 22 hours, I believe the humidity remained about 100 percent because this morning there was a very light mist on the inside of the lid.
I opened the chamber and examined the powder.
It was caked, but far from "soup" as you can see in this photo:

There still remained the question, would this powder still ignite?
To test this, I poured some of it into my Queen Anne to find out.

The powder flashed instantly on the first pull of the trigger.

The question remains, Where is the soup?

To go on with the test, I also ignited the remaining powder from the test using a match. It fired instantly (which is amazing in itself considering it is Elephant FFFFg :grin
Actually, there was very little fouling remaining on the tinfoil so I made another fouling sample by igniting a pile of Swiss FFFg 4 times in succession. The total powder burned was about 35 grains.
You can see the results in the right side of this photo along with the original test powders fouling.

My plan is to continue the test by subjecting these fouled pieces of foil, with a small pile of 4F powder on each one, to the same 100 percent humidity for another 20+ hours.
Tomorrow, we will see what the answer is to the question: "IS IT SOUP YET?'

 

[mbw907]

Thanks for your field test results, Jim. That is very interesting, indeed.

 

[biliff]

Me thinks your fouled samples will turn soupy. Living in Oregon, I haven't had a priming charge turn to goo on an unfired gun yet. I have had the pan and breach get down right sloppy during a range session under high humidity conditions.

 

[Bob J]

That's a cool experiment, Zonie! I shot about 25 -30 times at the range yesterday using 4f Goex to prime. The weather was warm, cloudy, standing water ponding in places on the grounds, and very high humidity. Ignition was excellent. Did have to wipe the pan with a rag about every 3rd shot as it was getting damp.

 

[roundball]

Zonie, I use that phrase a lot...and a pan "turning to soup" refers to what high humidity does to the "fouling residue" in the pan after a shot...not fresh dry powder.

 

[Zonie]

I understand roundball, but I've heard some say that the 4F powder can "turn to soup" in a clean pan on a very humid day. That's why I decided to try to reproduce this phenomenon using 4F in a clean (aluminum) "pan".
Hopefully, the fouled aluminum "pans" will draw in the moisture and ruin the new dry 4F I placed on top of it.
If my wife doesn't steal back her Fruit Ripener, we'll see tomorrow. :grin:
(She is currently saying things like "YOUR PUTTING TOXIC EXPLOSIVE WASTE IN MY FRUIT RIPENER. YOU CAN'T FIND THOSE THINGS ANYMORE! IT BETTER NOT POISON MY FRUIT! IT BETTER NOT STINK IT UP! WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS RUINING MY STUFF?..." :yakyak:

 

[roundball]

I understand roundball, but I've heard some say that the 4F powder can "turn to soup" in a clean pan on a very humid day. That's why I decided to try to reproduce this phenomenon using 4F in a clean (aluminum) "pan".

What happens to my 4F on wet days is that the top of it starts to get a "skin" on it...like if you bake a cake, when you take it out of the oven the top surface is like a 'skin' over what's under it.

So I probably check my prime every 10-15 minute and at a minimum refresh it at least every hour...every 30 minutes on a wet day

 

[sledgemeister]

hmm me thinks you better off building a comfy dog house.
For some reason most wives think that way and have no appreciation for the creative, inventive and inquisitive side of us lesser beings, especially if it involves using there things, like cooking utensils, hair dryers, stoves etc
personally I cant see any thing wrong in using the stove and the crock pot for melting lube and the soup ladle makes an excellent means of pouring it into molds?

 

[Halftail]

Zonie,
You are a Black Powder "Myth Buster" of sorts. :thumbsup: :grin:

 

[davy]

(She is currently saying things like " IT BETTER NOT STINK IT UP! WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS RUINING MY STUFF?..." :yakyak:

Ya bitter watch out Zonie ... afore she ruins yor "stuff"! :shocked2: :redface: :thumbsup:

Davy

 

[shmrck1]

Zonie,
Very interesting...Will be looking forward
to future test and results.
Yea, Mrs snake gets a little upset when
I use her "stuff" for my projects also. I
usually end up making it my "stuff" and then get
her new "stuff". Now if something gets just a little
warn she ask if I could use it for one of my
projects. How is it they can figure us out so
easily and we don't have clue on how to figure them?? :hmm: :rotf: :rotf:
snake-eyes :hatsoff:

 

[musketman]

My plan is to continue the test by subjecting these fouled pieces of foil, with a small pile of 4F powder on each one, to the same 100 percent humidity for another 20+ hours.
Tomorrow, we will see what the answer is to the question: "IS IT SOUP YET?'

Perhaps one of our Great White North members can conduct the same experiment in a colder climate, just to be sure...

I noticed a "soupy" prime while out hunting on cold, wet days, not so much when it was hot & wet...

 

[Zonie]

First, let me mention that the Fruit Ripener has sit unused on a shelf in my gunmaking room for over 5 years! I had to wash maybe 1/8 pound of dust etc out of it before I thought it was fit to use for this experiment. Oh well, it is her stuff
Now on to "The Rest of the Story."

As I mentioned above, I used the test foil fouling and created another foil with heavier fouling.
Onto each of these I placed a little pile of 4F powder and subjected it to the same "soak" in the 100 percent humidity environment for over 20 hours.

This morning I removed the samples and took this photo.

The fouling appeared to be damp and each "pile" of 4F powder was caked and damp.

Placing a piece of each pile into my Queen Anne I attempted to fire it.

In each case, the powder failed to ignite. To make sure it wasn't the gun, I subjected the powder to four attempts.

Following the Flintlock tests, I placed the powder samples on top of my gas BBQ and lit them with a match.
Both samples did light, but it was with a Swissssssssssssssssssssssssh that took almost a second to burn rather than the POOF yesterdays sample gave.

My conclusion is that 4F Black Powder can maintain it's explosive, easily lit nature after being subjected to over 20 hours of 100 percent humidity if it is in a clean pan or even in a opened can or keg.

If the powder is in a previously powder fouled pan it can and will absorb the additional water the fouling absorbs from the air making it useless for priming.

Although the small vent hole limits the amount of air circulating inside a loaded gunbarrel, I would expect a main powder charge to also be contaminated with moisture if left in a fouled gun overnight in a very humid environment.

Speculating about cold conditions, I can envision a case where a cold gun is taken into a warm humid environment and the condensation could moisten the powder resulting in a failure to fire.
Perhaps, as Musketman suggests, someone in the Northern climes might wish to duplicate my experiment and let us know if the results are similar.
Zonie

 

[charcloth]

Hey Jim,

I get soup in the fall moisture not the spring or summer.

Charcloth

 

[Slamfire]

(She is currently saying things like "YOUR PUTTING TOXIC EXPLOSIVE WASTE IN MY FRUIT RIPENER. YOU CAN'T FIND THOSE THINGS ANYMORE! IT BETTER NOT POISON MY FRUIT! IT BETTER NOT STINK IT UP! WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS RUINING MY STUFF?..." :yakyak:

I think you had better explain, to this "gentle" lady, that brown paper bags make much better "fruit ripeners", Before she turns violent. :v

 

[riarcher]

Could explain the increased lock times at the range on a damp day.
Starting out clean, lock times are fine. As time goes on, even if "cleaning the pan", lock times could increase because of fouled powder in or very near the flash hole and requiring add'l burn time.
Just something else to think about.
Makes you realise how important "follow thru" really is even at bench shooting.
My $0.02

 

[Zonie]

I know a lot of you Flintlock shooters wipe your pans after you've made a shot but based on my findings, I just thought I might remind folks that the underside of the frizzen (the pan cover) needs to be wiped too.
If fact, it may be the most critical area to wipe as it is right next to the top of the priming so moisture that collects on it will collect right where it will do the most damage. :hmm:

Zonie