• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

Issue with patent breach and misfires ?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

kyron4

50 Cal.
Joined
Dec 25, 2021
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
2,103
Location
Indiana
I posted a few weeks ago about suddenly getting flash in the pans after a few shots. Got a lot of good advice and info. I believe I have isolated the problem. After a few shots the small hole of the patent breach becomes slightly fouled (?)and if I just dump the powder down the bore it bottle necks on top of the small hole. I didn't swab or clean but started to trickle 3 to 5 grain of powder in and gave the butt a few bumps on a piece of wood to settle it, I then dumped the remaining load. I had 100% ignition each time following that procedure.

I appears the small hole is 4.5 mm (.177") as a 3/16" rod won't go through , a brush and mop for a .17 cal. works good while a .22 brush is to tight. I checked my caplock Hawken and Deer hunter (all Traditions) and they were the same, yet never had an issue with those rifles. So, would it be a bad idea to open that hole up a little to help the powder fall in, or am I asking for trouble ? I feel 3F would work better but I just bought 5 lbs. of 2F back in Feb, so I'd like to keep using that powder. Another thought was would it be okay to start the load with 3 to 5 grains of 4F followed by the 50 grain load of 2F powder ? I seem to remember reading someone who did this to improve ignition while hunting. Any advice or thoughts ? -Thanks
 
Do not open the chamber--it's that size for a reason. Pressure Physics is the science behind patent/chambered breech design and changing dimensions will alter performance.
 
I have 4 Traditions flintlocks, all in .50 caliber, and have had problems using 2f in them. They give far more reliable ignition with 3f, and one of them, the Kentucky rifle works best with 4f as charge.

Lately I've been lightly picking the touch hole before each shot then dumping just a few grains of 4f into the pan, tilting the rifle to the left so that those grains run into the hole, then returning the rifle to level again before filling the pan just below level full. Since I've adopted this technique I almost never have a flash in the pan. I don't get so much powder in the hole that it causes any noticeable hangfire at all.

I don't do any swabbing between shots and used to have some pan flashes after the first dozen or so shots. Since I've gone to the method described above I often run 28-32 shots with one rifle in a session without any pan flashes.

I'd think that starting the load with a little 4f then finishing with your 2f might work as well. Can't hurt to try.
 
There are differences between a chambered breech and the patent breeches that were developed to improve ignition through the pressure physics phenomena mentioned by @Larry Akers. Let's look at some drawings posted by a former moderator and technical guru, Zonie.

1654001159904.png

The modified Nock's patent breech takes advantage of the pressure physics of the small amount of powder near the touch hole to create the high pressure jet of flame into the main powder chamber which is drilled to almost the diameter of the bore of the barrel.

The Tradition's chambered breech is the same as the CVA style chambered breech. The chamber is drilled much smaller than the bore in the case of @kyron4's Traditions rifle.

In the case of a true chambered breech, the breech plug is not designed to create a pressure jet of flame into the powder charge. The chambered breech is designed to allow for production of a rifle with a choice of flint breech or drum and nipple percussion breech using the same barrel from inventory. The classic chambered breech could be removed and the opening into the chamber opened up to allow more and larger grained powder to get to bottom of the chamber. In the case of the CVA/Traditions style chambered breech, the touch hole insert is drilled through the breech plug and then the hole is drilled into the flash channel. To remove the breech plug, the touch hole liner needs to be removed and the plug through the breech plug needs to be removed. Removal of the breech of a Traditions/CVA rifle voids the warranty and should not be considered. Kyron4's thinking that the use of 4f or 3f powder as a kick starter is probably the best option. As @mmb617 has observed, the 2Fg powder can be too large to reliably enter the tiny chamber and smaller grained powder is the best choice. Real black powder with its lower ignition temperature is also an advantage to obtain reliable ignition.
 
I use a Pedersoli Mortimer to shoot matches. 20 shots per match. No wiping between shots and never any misfires attributed to the patent breach. I do not clean between shots that push fouling down into the breach. I use a patch ball combo wet with windshield washer fluid. The last shot loads as easy as the first. I only use 2F in this rifle. Same procedure with my Pedersoli 32 Kentucky and trade gun. 3F in both of those. I’m not even sure if the trade gun has a patent breach. I know my Bess does not. I don’t clean any different than I do with a regular breached rifle. Never used a smaller jag or a brush in the breech. I simply don’t even think about it and mine go off fine. I attribute flashes in the pan more to touch hole size and it’s fouling. Prior to a day at the range I plug the touch holes and blast the barrels/breach out with carb or brake cleaner. Spray it down the barrel, shake it around and dump it out. Let it evaporate, load and fire! Never an issue.
 
Last edited:
I too built a Traditions Kentucky flintlock in 50 cal and had issues with ignition with both FFG and FFFG. After posting a question here on this forum, I got many different things to try, all excellent suggestions unfortunately nothing improved ignition in my gun. After inspecting the "breech ante chamber" with an experienced builder in my local club (who builds the "patent breech" into most of his custom guns) even he said "that's way too small a hole for reliable ignition after multiple shots/fowling. The largest object I could get in mine was .110 clean so yours at .177 is a fair measurement.
So I decided to make drill bits (multiple) the length of my barrel so the breech did not have to be disassembled; what the heck, it wasn't working anyway, if I wrecked it, I would eventually get another barrel and keep trying to make it better. Again, working with my local "expert" (my words not his) I began making drill bits starting at 3/16" x 36" up to 1/4" by 36"; 5 bits total, coating them in rubber to protect the barrel. Then to the range, drill and test fire to see how many shots I could get out of my one and done Kentucky. (that's all the shots I could get out of it without flushing the barrel prior to drilling). I stopped drilling the breech ante chamber at 15/64" and a 1/16" touch hole and now have no ignition problems with any black powder I chose to utilize, even FG, as many shots as I want to take. I also want to note that with each increase in breech drill, I tried 4 different touch hole sizes (1/16"up to a #50) to see if it made a difference in ignition (better, worse, same); again changing only one variable at a time as suggested by my "expert" builder to see what worked.
I am not suggesting that this is what you do, this is what I did that worked for me. I now love my Traditions flinter, and as my local expert said, it doesn't matter the cost of the gun; they can all be fussy, part of the fun is finding what works. Best of luck with your journey, it will be just that much sweeter when you get it; DONT GIVE UP. Keep us posted on your progress!
 
Back
Top