• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Importance of ‘load development’ to find the BEST group!

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Dec 30, 2004
Messages
4,473
Reaction score
6,111
Location
New England
Here’s how I do it!

GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock - using ANY type of propellant or powdah - vibrate like a tuning fork when shot and the barrel whips in a sine wave manner, typically vibrating up & down like a looooong sideways 'S'.

A node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. There may be several nodes identified as you increase your powder charge. To test this, you ‘randomly’ shoot 3-shot groups at a bullseye for each charge, beginning with your starting load and say working up in 5-grain increments for a few different charges. Repeat with other sets, up to what you think may be near your max charge, say if you wanted to identify a lower co$t or more accurate target load, as well as a heavier hunting load.

3E490213-DF8A-4C77-8A6F-12963C6BEEDC.jpeg


Note - One does NOT shoot all of one charge at once, but shoot them in a random pattern, as then 'statistically' you will have normalized the data by eliminating YOUR bias and spreading any human-induced variation across ALL of the shots and groups.

Examples of such bias are your aim/hold, light on the target, cheek and/or shoulder position or pressure, yanking the trigger or like when you begin to shoot poorly towards the end when tired. Any such factor - independent of the load - could adversely influence or bias the last group's results. Statistically shooting them in a round-robin manner thus significantly increases the confidence you can place in the results. For consistency, I pre-load the charges in plastic tubes marked with the charge weight.

C7742577-947E-444C-A1B5-B7565981B1E2.jpeg


Those shots with the tightest group denote the range around a node. To fine tune, then experiment around the identified node, if you care to. I also do similar for my modern unmentionable 1,000-yard rifle, but this method (based on physics) also works for black powdah as I have proven it many times. Believe or not, but I get many PMs saying one can’t apply ‘modern theory’ to black powder shootin’!

The summary here is … that in as little as 12-shots I determined what load this 48” barreled ‘Rob Miller’ Carolina 62-cal flint smoothbore likes!
 
Would you surmise that temperature variance would be enough to change harmonics? For example, if you let the barrel cool down after every third shot would the temp change from first shot to third be significsnt enough to have an effect on outcome?
 
… it may open the group, yes … but no, I ignore that. I will say that cryogenic processing on modern unmentionables works to remove that from the equation. Never tried it on a longrifle!
 
Effect of temp should be easy to test. Shoot a carefully benched 10 shot group with the barrel started cold and shoot at a pace that will warm the barrel. Then shoot another ten shot group with thorough cooling between shots.

I'm of the opinion that the difference would be too small to be conclusive. Comparing to modern cartridge might not be compatible since barrel heating in the modern gun would outpace that of the ml.

Also, I don't think 3 shot groups are enough to isolate the true potential of any one load.
 
Here’s how I do it!

GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock - using ANY type of propellant or powdah - vibrate like a tuning fork when shot and the barrel whips in a sine wave manner, typically vibrating up & down like a looooong sideways 'S'.

A node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. There may be several nodes identified as you increase your powder charge. To test this, you ‘randomly’ shoot 3-shot groups at a bullseye for each charge, beginning with your starting load and say working up in 5-grain increments for a few different charges. Repeat with other sets, up to what you think may be near your max charge, say if you wanted to identify a lower co$t or more accurate target load, as well as a heavier hunting load.

View attachment 256947

Note - One does NOT shoot all of one charge at once, but shoot them in a random pattern, as then 'statistically' you will have normalized the data by eliminating YOUR bias and spreading any human-induced variation across ALL of the shots and groups.

Examples of such bias are your aim/hold, light on the target, cheek and/or shoulder position or pressure, yanking the trigger or like when you begin to shoot poorly towards the end when tired. Any such factor - independent of the load - could adversely influence or bias the last group's results. Statistically shooting them in a round-robin manner thus significantly increases the confidence you can place in the results. For consistency, I pre-load the charges in plastic tubes marked with the charge weight.

View attachment 256948

Those shots with the tightest group denote the range around a node. To fine tune, then experiment around the identified node, if you care to. I also do similar for my modern unmentionable 1,000-yard rifle, but this method (based on physics) also works for black powdah as I have proven it many times. Believe or not, but I get many PMs saying one can’t apply ‘modern theory’ to black powder shootin’!

The summary here is … that in as little as 12-shots I determined what load this 48” barreled ‘Rob Miller’ Carolina 62-cal flint smoothbore likes!
Great post and exactly the stuff I've been on about. And YES- you can absolutely apply this "modern" theory to black powder as physics is still physics. Just because black powder is involved doesn't mean physics is no longer applicable and magic now rules. I've also seen black powder rifles change point of impact depending on how it's held during bench testing and that's because how it's held on a bench will affect the vibration of the barrel.

As for temperature of the barrel, yes, it is definitely a variable to deal with. I've seen it many times with modern arms and again, just because we're using black powder doesn't negate the laws of physics and thermodynamics. That's why bedding, tang screw torque, inletting, and anything that induces stress on a barrel is in play.
 
Effects I will see from hot barrels is that shots will wander left to right, with possibly, some elevation variation mixed in, if the barrel is pinned too tight and the tenon pin holes are not slotted, especially those out on the end of the muzzle.

Also, I don't think 3 shot groups are enough to isolate the true potential of any one load.
You clearly missed my point about fine tuning the load around the node identified ...
 
Two deer in heaven. One says, boy the guy that got me shot dead center in my heart, let me tell you he knew his gun.
Other deer say. The guy that got me just didn’t understand the physics at all. Aimed for my heart, got my aorta and bits of my lung Instead…. Idiot!
 
I'm of the opinion that the difference would be too small to be conclusive. Comparing to modern cartridge might not be compatible since barrel heating in the modern gun would outpace that of the ml.
And you'd be wrong on that. We shoot at a pretty rapid pace in the N-SSA and serious competitors are well aware of this. That's why you'll see far more "2 band" muskets on the line than 3. Barrel walls are thicker relative to length and can deal with heat effects better, not to mention stiffer to mitigate vibration. Also, 2 banders are quicker to load and easier to shoot accurately and quickly.
 
Note - One does NOT shoot all of one charge at once, but shoot them in a random pattern, as then 'statistically' you will have normalized the data by eliminating YOUR bias and spreading any human-induced variation across ALL of the shots and groups.
Statistically, a three shot group is worthless. Shooting them in a random pattern does not make them any more so. Reliable accuracy testing needs more than 3 shots per group. At least ten per group. Statisticians at Hornady recommend 20 shot groups. Likewise, shooting a series of 3 shot groups and then averaging them will not tell the story.

As for temperature of the barrel, yes, it is definitely a variable to deal with. I've seen it many times with modern arms and again, just because we're using black powder doesn't negate the laws of physics and thermodynamics. That's why bedding, tang screw torque, inletting, and anything that induces stress on a barrel is in play.

The major difference between modern and ml barrel heat is the rate at which it builds due to much higher pressure, more friction due to the hardness of the bullet, the relative oversize bullet diameter to bore dimensions, and higher rate of fire. That's why I have doubts about heat influence on ml groups and don't give much credence to modern/ml comparisons.
 
Statistically, a three shot group is worthless. Shooting them in a random pattern does not make them any more so. Reliable accuracy testing needs more than 3 shots per group. At least ten per group. Statisticians at Hornady recommend 20 shot groups. Likewise, shooting a series of 3 shot groups and then averaging them will not tell the story.



The major difference between modern and ml barrel heat is the rate at which it builds due to much higher pressure, more friction due to the hardness of the bullet, the relative oversize bullet diameter to bore dimensions, and higher rate of fire. That's why I have doubts about heat influence on ml groups and don't give much credence to modern/ml comparisons.
Evidently you've never shot with the N-SSA. In one relay at Nationals, it's not unusual to get a musket almost too hot to touch. Guys who shoot Henrys go rapid fire for an entire magazine. Yeah, is entirely possible to get a muzzleloader hot.
 
Evidently you've never shot with the N-SSA. In one relay at Nationals, it's not unusual to get a musket almost too hot to touch. Guys who shoot Henrys go rapid fire for an entire magazine. Yeah, is entirely possible to get a muzzleloader hot.
Nope never shot those courses. But, there's still the question of how all that heat effects accuracy. I've shot ten shots in twenty minutes without getting the barrel very hot. It can get hotter sitting in a rack the sun. I can easily test it to find out and may do so.
 
Nope never shot those courses. But, there's still the question of how all that heat effects accuracy. I've shot ten shots in twenty minutes without getting the barrel very hot. It can get hotter sitting in a rack the sun. I can easily test it to find out and may do so.
One example, the musket match consists of 5 events. Each event is 5 minutes long to shoot a target set. The entire team shoots at once and as fast as possible since score is based on elapsed time with penalties for targets left. So yeah, if we're not having a great day, there will be many shots fired in very quick succession with no wiping, blowing, or otherwise cooling and on a warm day, the guns get quite hot.
 
Leaving the heat issue aside, it was said above that 3-shots don't prove anything statistically ... true (usually need 25 to 50). However the round-robin method does spread the human-influenced bias out amongst all of the shots fired.

The reason I do it … like Dave, I also shoot competitively - all offhand shooting - THE most difficult type of shooting to do.

I think one can understand that one should be able to do a heck of a lot better with a gun and load capable of a 1” group versus that capable of a 3-4” group …
 
One example, the musket match consists of 5 events. Each event is 5 minutes long to shoot a target set. The entire team shoots at once and as fast as possible since score is based on elapsed time with penalties for targets left. So yeah, if we're not having a great day, there will be many shots fired in very quick succession with no wiping, blowing, or otherwise cooling and on a warm day, the guns get quite hot.

Well, you have "been there, done that" and I can see how loading and shooting that fast would heat the barrel up. Still not sure how much it would effect accuracy? I'm thinking it would vary among rifles.
 
Leaving the heat issue aside, it was said above that 3-shots don't prove anything statistically ... true (usually need 25 to 50). However the round-robin method does spread the human-influenced bias out amongst all of the shots fired.

The reason I do it … like Dave, I also shoot competitively - all offhand shooting - THE most difficult type of shooting to do.

I think one can understand that one should be able to do a heck of a lot better with a gun and load capable of a 1” group versus that capable of a 3-4” group …
I agree that a 3 shoot group isn't a good way to determine how a rifle load will group, but it is a good rough indicator. If the first 3 shots won't group into a washtub, save powder and move on to another load. If the load looks like it may have potential, by all means shoot at least a 5 shoot group, preferably more. One more comment, ladder testing supplies to our guns just as much as a modern one. Change only one variable at the time, test, evaluate, make one change, retest. If you change multiple variables, you'll have no idea what caused any change, good or bad.
 
Well, you have "been there, done that" and I can see how loading and shooting that fast would heat the barrel up. Still not sure how much it would effect accuracy? I'm thinking it would vary among rifles.
It most certainly does affect accuracy. As metal heats, it expands at a different rate than the wood stock. That can have a huge effect on the bedding hence accuracy. Longer barrels are more subject to this because there's a greater length barrel. Longer barrels are also more vulnerable to change due to vibration as the shot clears the barrel. BPCR guys long ago figured this out while shooting from X sticks. For best accuracy, they'll rest the barrel on the sticks at a node of the vibration pattern to eliminate influencing the bullet as it exits the barrel.
 
It most certainly does affect accuracy. As metal heats, it expands at a different rate than the wood stock. That can have a huge effect on the bedding hence accuracy. Longer barrels are more subject to this because there's a greater length barrel. Longer barrels are also more vulnerable to change due to vibration as the shot clears the barrel. BPCR guys long ago figured this out while shooting from X sticks. For best accuracy, they'll rest the barrel on the sticks at a node of the vibration pattern to eliminate influencing the bullet as it exits the barrel.

That's all well and good 👍. I agree with your reasons for the assertion and think that all of it will likely effect accuracy but that's only a theory without being proofed by testing.

Also pretty sure it would be a minor if even noticeable effect on muzzzleloaders that are typically shot as most are at a much slower rate of fire.

I have to wonder what esoteric methodology is applied by BPCR shooters to determine the the exact location of an invisible vibration node on the barrel 🤔 I've had occasion to watch BPCR shooters at my club. Regular monthly matches are held there and there have been quite a few high level competitions run there. Every single shooter has always rested their barrel on the cross sticks right at the Muzzle. As close to the Muzzle as possible. Nothing to do with nodes, it's all about minimizing the effects of any movement of the rifle and shooter .
 

Latest posts

Back
Top