Help identifying old Flintlock please.

[jeff45]

Hi!
I'm new to classic firearms, and I've seen an old Flintlock that looks interesting. Not in the best of conditions but hey, got to start small.

Now the first thing, I'm not sure if the thing is an old original, or a replica. Looks real, but who knows.

Second question would be, if one of you experts could identify it's maker, country of origin, rough timespan or any other details.(if its real...)

And third, if it's the real deal, what I roughly should be paying for it.

I really would appreaciate any and all help!

Thanks a lot!
Best Regards,
Jeff

p.s. the length is in cm, so that would be app. 7 inches

p.s.s. the images are displayed much smaller than they are, if you open them on their own they are 1200px long.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Belgian trade pistol ca. 1800 give or take 20 years. A whole bunch of barrel has been whacked off the end. Value? $200 to $500 these days.

 

[jeff45]

Wow, that was quick and accurate! Thank you Mike!
One last question, what is the general fireworthiness of a pistol like this? Am I likely to blow my hand up if try to fire this pistol, or should it be safe? I don't actually intend to shoot it, just interesting to know if a old piece like this would.

Best Regards,
Jeff

 

[Mike Brooks]

I personally wouldn't fire that particular gun. I shoot old guns all the time, but judging by the condition of that one I wouldn't push it.

 

[Zonie]

Jeff45, Welcome to the Forum.

In order to really have an idea about the guns safety when shooting it the gun should be examined by a gunsmith who knows about muzzle loading guns.

Those are pretty hard to find but the absolute minimum he/she should do to it is to fluorescent penetrant inspect the barrel. This will show any cracks that are on the surface.

Magnetic Particle inspection is even better because it will show sub-surface flaws like cracks that do not extend to the surface.

As for the gun in the photos it looks to be in fairly poor condition.
If shooting it is on your mind, you have to remember that the parts that make up the lock are probably irreplaceable. If they break they would have to be made by hand by a real gunsmith. That can be very expensive.

Before you buy that gun, ask yourself, "what exactly do I want to do with it?"

If the answer is, "hang it on the wall or in a picture frame" then I see nothing wrong with buying it if you can get a real good price.
If the answer is, "I want to shoot it.", I recommend that you buy a well made modern reproduction pistol. With it, parts are available and you know the gun is totally safe to shoot with black powder.

 

[jeff45]

Mike, Jim: Thank you both for your immense help!

Hmm okay, it will be difficult to find someone knowledgeable about flintlocks around here.
The general idea is to showcase this one. But you got to ask...

Hmm true, I never thought about the parts, was only worried about the barrel. The trigger still works, though it hasn't got much kick anymore.

This one has gotten me very interested in old muzzleloaders, I'll be keeping my eyes open for an intact dueling-pistol. Or am I kidding myself about the amount of cash I'll have to lay on the table for an era pistol that still looks halfway ok? Is 500$-1000$ reasonable or can you make a bargain below that? Again, it's for the display case, not the shooting range.


For a completely different question, a relative of mine whom I showed the gun expressed interest in a pair of old dueling pistols in pristine condition, his guess and willingness to pay was around 10.000$, what is, in your experience, a reasonable price range for two very good pistols? (Also to be displyed) Any recommendations?

I'm rather new to this kind of 'art', please excuse all my (stupid) questions

Thanks for the Welcome!

Jeff

 

[Zonie]

The best I can do when it comes to information about real collectible antique firearms is to refer to "FLAYDERMAN'S GUIDE TO ANTIQUE AMERICAN FIREARMS". This book is considered to be the best source of information about the current values of American antique guns.
Most library's have copies of it if your interested. I think I have the latest edition (9th) but there may be something newer out there.

Anyway, about dueling pistols, Flayderman says, "Vauuing "duelers" is often a vague undertaking. Greater price fluctionations will be seen in these handguns than in most other areas of American arms collecting. Quite a few long-experienced collectors infer that American "duelers" are underrated in proportion to their relative scarcity. The often "romanticized" and envisioned uses for which they may have been designed or put to actual use...especially that of defending one's honor (however fictionalized) in a long-gone chivalrous era, merely adds to their aura. When these pistols are priced logically, a strong demand exists for them...and they sell readily...."

That all boils down to them costing large amounts of money.
His book, under American Percussion Dueling Pistol places the value of individual guns at, "Good $1,100, Very good $2,000, Excellent $3,750.
For cased sets of Percussion pistols he says, "Good $3,000, Very Good $5,000, Excellent $10,000+.

Noting that these are Percussion guns, a Flintlock would be worth more.

With any gun, but especially muzzleloading guns a very large part of the value depends on the makers name. Some makers names will bring a fortune while others will bring nothing.

IMO, this is not an area that should be entered into without expert guidance.
It is far too easy to get totally ripped off by forged or newly made guns that are worth less than $1,000 selling for $3,000+ dollars.

I've been around guns all my life and muzzleloaders for over 37 years and I know that I don't have the knowledge to invest in these antiques.

One thing I've learned though. Many who own a muzzleloading pistol, although they have no real idea of its value, will always think their gun is worth a fortune.
I've seen many sellers who are thoroughly convinced that their gun was used in the Revolutionary War and is worth $10,000 when in fact they are holding a gun that was made in the 1860's in Belgium and at best is worth no more than $250.

Buyer Beware is a very good thing to remember.

 

[jeff45]

Thank's a lot for that push in the right direction! I'll have a look into the book, also looked at his Website, very nice...

Jeff

 

[arquebus]

Jeff, here's a couple of links to some nice duellers for sale, that will give your friend some idea of what his money could buy.
http://collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=26911
http://collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=27885
http://collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=28663

 

[Many Klatch]

That gun was really abused. It was apparently cut down to hide in a pocket by someone with only a hacksaw and a wood rasp. I'll bet he didn't take more than an hour to bob the barrel. It might be worth having in a collection if you wanted show how badly a gun could be treated and yet still survive for 200 years.

Many Klatch

 

[jeff45]

arquebus, many thanks for the links! They are truly beautiful!

Many Klatch: indeed, it is a very handy pocket size. Who knows for what reasons it has been cut down, the man using it must have been really concerned about close range shooting and quick accessibility.

Jeff