Hawken Reproduction

[user 36911]

The new GPR built by Pedersoli looks like this.

 

[LME]

The new GPR built by Pedersoli looks like this.

That snail is what I was refering to. It looks like someone sawed it off with a hacksaw? It looks nothing like my Ithaca Hawkin?

 

[user 36911]

Neither does the wood.

Which one is right?

 

[LME]

Neither does the wood.

Which one is right?

The one I had looked exactly like the one in your picture. I only disliked the snail. I could live with everything else. The rifle was very accurate had sleek lines and was overall well built. You mentioned the wood? What do you mean?

 

[user 36911]

Does this look right to you?

 

[user 36911]

Bob..........I just looked at my trigger again. The long tang upper screw does go through the stock and screws into the trigger bar. I thought it screwed into the trigger guard but it doesn't. The upper tang couldn't be any longer than it is because the wood raises up at the end of the tang. So, the Signature Series gun does re-enforce the wrist by screwing the the upper tang and trigger bar together. What appears to be different is the Pedersoli has a longer trigger bar that the rear of the trigger guard can screw too. The Signature Series made a shorter trigger bar that ends where the upper tang screw screws into the bar. Then made that little plate to attach the rear of the trigger guard to. I'm not sure why Pedersoli decided to made that apart different? However, as far as strength in the wrist area they both have the same strength and are re-enforced to same.

Look at the above picture of Bridgers gun. You can see the upper tang screw can't come down and screw into the rear of the trigger guard. It screws into the trigger bar more forward. That's what the Signature Series does too.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

A small digression, Marcy often gets mentioned as a primary source. He plagiarized a work by a British explorer, I wish I could remember the author and title. It was available online. Marcy could have been advising Hawkins, and doing it to sound authoritative. I suspect it was just a generic term. I discovered the Bitish book years ago when the internet was young, and you could still search Google and get only a single result.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Notchy, any idea of what happened to the Birringer rifle? I travel to Leavenworth periodically to the VA hospital And Fort. I'd sure like to see the rifle. Copying it would mean more to me that replicating a Hawken.

 

[vintovka]

Since were talking "hawkins" old and new (including styles) what you think of this poor restoration? Not sure of any of it and still being finished and was assembled around a from a stripped stock at an estate sale and various bits and pieces from everywhere.

 

[Notchy Bob]

@MtnMan

You are right about the position of the tang screws. The long tang by itself, with the screws through the wrist, certainly provides reinforcement. The trigger bar or plate on the original, classic Hawken rifles was one piece, extending from ahead of the trigger guard bow to back of the scroll. Both tang screws engaged the trigger bar, although as you pointed out, the screw visible in the scroll was not one of them. The full length, one-piece tang and the full length one-piece trigger bar made a "sandwich," with the wood in between, to give maximum reinforcement. You can see the full-length trigger bar in the exploded view of the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in an earlier post.

@Kansas Volunteer,

I'm not sure we are talking about the same book. There were a number of guides and handbooks for emigrants published in the mid-19th century. One of the most famous was by a writer named Ware, who had never crossed the plains. He based his book on John Fremont's reports from his various and frequently disastrous expeditions in the 1840's. There were certainly Englishmen on the plains who wrote books about their experiences, notably George Frederick Ruxton and William Drummond Stewart, not to mention a number of English, Scottish, and Irish travelers who crossed the Canadian plains. I would be interested in knowing which writer was referenced in your post.

Captain Randolph Marcy (1812-1887) was a very highly respected career military man who traveled all over the west. His book, The Prairie Traveler, was published by the War Department of the US Government in 1859. I have never heard this book described as anything but a primary reference. It was definitely written by Marcy, based on his personal experiences, of which he had many. The book was written while Captain Marcy was working for the Department of State in Washington. After the book was published, he was promoted to major. It is also a great read. I have a copy I bought about forty years ago, and I still enjoy reading it. Marcy had a lot to say about firearms. This is the quote to which I referred earlier, discussing "Hawkins" rifles:

Not exactly good advertising for the Hawken brothers, but it does reinforce the point that many of the old plainsmen, like Tom Tobin, held on to their muzzle-loaders to the end.

Regarding Tom Tobin's Biringer (or Birringer) rifle, I don't know for certain where it is, but I would suspect it is in Colorado. Tobin died in 1904, and he was buried in the Fort Garland cemetery. Lt. Col. Goodwin's article (you can link to it RIGHT HERE) was published in 1997, and at that time Tobin's Birringer rifle was owned by a Mr. Charles Mondragon of San Luis, Colorado. That was 24 years ago, though. If I wanted to find it, I would try calling the Fort Garland Museum as well as the San Luis Valley Museum in Alamosa, Colorado, which evidently has an exhibit in remembrance of Mr. Tobin. The museum has a little PDF about Tobin online (click HERE) that shows a rifle on display, but I don't think it is the Birringer rifle Col. Good win described.

However, John Biringer was evidently a prolific builder, and there are a number of his rifles "out there," in displays as well as up for sale on the various auction sites. I've found several, just poking around on the web, and all I've found have a lot of similarities. Some have one barrel key, while some have two, and some have back action locks while others are front-action or "bar" locks. Most seem to have brass mountings, although the one described by Goodwin was trimmed in iron. Some are small-caliber, but various sources state Biringer also made "fifty caliber" rifles, like the one Goodwin described. I thought it was interesting that the article about Biringer on the Kansas State Historical Society (KSHS) website showed a stock pattern or template, as all of the rifles I've found online had similar architecture. Also, they all seem to be half-stocks with ribs under the barrel. This one is from the KSHS article:

You might even contact the KSHS to see if they have this rifle on display somewhere in the state.

Next is a nice one with one barrel key I found on an auction site:

This illustration was in a publication I found online, entitled Plows and Bibles, Rifles and Revolvers: Guns in Kansas Territory :



The Sharps is a Model 1853 and the shotgun appears to be percussion, so we should be in compliance with forum guidelines. The bottom rifle is evidently by Biringer.

I think it would be great if you had a copy of a Biringer rifle built. If you can find one in Kansas and get some photos, or use photos found online, then contact a builder like John Bergman or Mike Roby to build a reproduction, you would end up with a really nice, shootable "non-Hawken" plains rifle with a Kansas connection.

One final historical footnote of interest: John Biringer founded a hardware store in Leavenworth in 1859. He was still running the business in 1900, when he hired a young, apprentice blacksmith named Hoyt Heath Buck. Mr. Biringer taught the young Mr. Buck the art of heat treating steel, in addition to general blacksmithing skills. The young man learned his craft well, and went on to found his own cutlery company: Buck Knives.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[French Colonial]

@MtnMan

You are right about the position of the tang screws. The long tang by itself, with the screws through the wrist, certainly provides reinforcement. The trigger bar or plate on the original, classic Hawken rifles was one piece, extending from ahead of the trigger guard bow to back of the scroll. Both tang screws engaged the trigger bar, although as you pointed out, the screw visible in the scroll was not one of them. The full length, one-piece tang and the full length one-piece trigger bar made a "sandwich," with the wood in between, to give maximum reinforcement. You can see the full-length trigger bar in the exploded view of the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken in an earlier post.

@Kansas Volunteer,

I'm not sure we are talking about the same book. There were a number of guides and handbooks for emigrants published in the mid-19th century. One of the most famous was by a writer named Ware, who had never crossed the plains. He based his book on John Fremont's reports from his various and frequently disastrous expeditions in the 1840's. There were certainly Englishmen on the plains who wrote books about their experiences, notably George Frederick Ruxton and William Drummond Stewart, not to mention a number of English, Scottish, and Irish travelers who crossed the Canadian plains. I would be interested in knowing which writer was referenced in your post.

Captain Randolph Marcy (1812-1887) was a very highly respected career military man who traveled all over the west. His book, The Prairie Traveler, was published by the War Department of the US Government in 1859. I have never heard this book described as anything but a primary reference. It was definitely written by Marcy, based on his personal experiences, of which he had many. The book was written while Captain Marcy was working for the Department of State in Washington. After the book was published, he was promoted to major. It is also a great read. I have a copy I bought about forty years ago, and I still enjoy reading it. Marcy had a lot to say about firearms. This is the quote to which I referred earlier, discussing "Hawkins" rifles:

View attachment 77711

Not exactly good advertising for the Hawken brothers, but it does reinforce the point that many of the old plainsmen, like Tom Tobin, held on to their muzzle-loaders to the end.

Regarding Tom Tobin's Biringer (or Birringer) rifle, I don't know for certain where it is, but I would suspect it is in Colorado. Tobin died in 1904, and he was buried in the Fort Garland cemetery. Lt. Col. Goodwin's article (you can link to it RIGHT HERE) was published in 1997, and at that time Tobin's Birringer rifle was owned by a Mr. Charles Mondragon of San Luis, Colorado. That was 24 years ago, though. If I wanted to find it, I would try calling the Fort Garland Museum as well as the San Luis Valley Museum in Alamosa, Colorado, which evidently has an exhibit in remembrance of Mr. Tobin. The museum has a little PDF about Tobin online (click HERE) that shows a rifle on display, but I don't think it is the Birringer rifle Col. Good win described.

However, John Biringer was evidently a prolific builder, and there are a number of his rifles "out there," in displays as well as up for sale on the various auction sites. I've found several, just poking around on the web, and all I've found have a lot of similarities. Some have one barrel key, while some have two, and some have back action locks while others are front-action or "bar" locks. Most seem to have brass mountings, although the one described by Goodwin was trimmed in iron. Some are small-caliber, but various sources state Biringer also made "fifty caliber" rifles, like the one Goodwin described. I thought it was interesting that the article about Biringer on the Kansas State Historical Society (KSHS) website showed a stock pattern or template, as all of the rifles I've found online had similar architecture. Also, they all seem to be half-stocks with ribs under the barrel. This one is from the KSHS article:

View attachment 77712

You might even contact the KSHS to see if they have this rifle on display somewhere in the state.

Next is a nice one with one barrel key I found on an auction site:

View attachment 77713

This illustration was in a publication I found online, entitled Plows and Bibles, Rifles and Revolvers: Guns in Kansas Territory :
View attachment 77714

The Sharps is a Model 1853 and the shotgun appears to be percussion, so we should be in compliance with forum guidelines. The bottom rifle is evidently by Biringer.

I think it would be great if you had a copy of a Biringer rifle built. If you can find one in Kansas and get some photos, or use photos found online, then contact a builder like John Bergman or Mike Roby to build a reproduction, you would end up with a really nice, shootable "non-Hawken" plains rifle with a Kansas connection.

One final historical footnote of interest: John Biringer founded a hardware store in Leavenworth in 1859. He was still running the business in 1900, when he hired a young, apprentice blacksmith named Hoyt Heath Buck. Mr. Biringer taught the young Mr. Buck the art of heat treating steel, in addition to general blacksmithing skills. The young man learned his craft well, and went on to found his own cutlery company: Buck Knives.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

That is fascinating! Really good stuff!

 

[Notchy Bob]

Since were talking "hawkins" old and new (including styles) what you think of this poor restoration? Not sure of any of it and still being finished and was assembled around a from a stripped stock at an estate sale and various bits and pieces from everywhere. View attachment 77702View attachment 77703View attachment 77704View attachment 77705View attachment 77702View attachment 77703

I think it's a very nice Hawken re-make, but I can't say who made it. Are there any makings on the barrel(s) other than the caliber designation and the "Black Powder Only" graffiti? It appears to have the Griffith Tool Company breechplug and "comma" shaped snail, as on original J&S Hawkens. I'm not sure what to make of the trigger guard, which is a much thicker, heavier casting than you normally see, especially at the top of the scroll. The triggers, too, seem a little unusual. The front trigger has a subtle curve, and the small "web" at the back of the front trigger may be unusual enough to help identify it. I like the dark finish, which I believe is very authentic. I think on originals the wedges or barrel keys typically went in from the left, with the heads on the side opposite the lock.

Is that rear sight adjustable for elevation?

I'm not sure I fully understand the comments that accompany the photos. Did you assemble the rifle from parts? Do the photos show it before or after refinishing?

In any event, I think it is a fine Hawken-style rifle. I've no idea who made it, but it's one I would be very pleased to own.

Notchy Bob

 

[user 36911]

Bob...........Not to drag this on but I want it clear for anybody considering buying the Signature Series gun that the wrist area is just as strong as the Rocky Mountain gun or even the original Hawken. Earlier in this thread we thought to upper tang screw went thought the wrist and screwed into the rear of the trigger guard. That would be weaker but it doesn't do that but screws into the trigger bar. So, the Lyman Great Plains Signature Series Hawken, the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain, and the original Hawken all screw the upper tang and trigger bar together to strengthen the wrist area.

 

[LME]

Does this look right to you?

Yes! That is what I was refering to. My Lyman shot well and accuracy was amazing. It was pleasant to shoot as you knew when you pulled the trigger that the ball would go where you aimed. What was agravating was when ever I handled the rifle my mind would be drawn to that cut off snail? That is why I sold it. I should say gave it away as I got $200.00for it and it was almost brand new! I was stupid!

 

[user 36911]

LME...........To be honest. I'm not sure what you mean by cut off snail?

 

[LME]

LME...........To be honest. I'm not sure what you mean by cut off snail?

Just look at the pictures of the two rifles you said." like this"? one snail was flat on the side the other was gracefully curve like the original ones I have seen? The flat sided one looks like it was cut off!

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Thank you, Notchy Bob, for all that good info on Birringer. The Historical Society museum is an easy drive from here. I'll have to go see their rifle. The other info will be a useful guide for study.

Marcy's book is his own work when it comes to the specifics of travel in the west, but the generalities of organization and equipping an expedition are lifted from an earlier British work. I've been trying to locate any reference to it, but now that the internet is awash in often trivial references it seems lost in time. I suppose Marcy, going where he hadn't gone before found it convenient to copy an earlier British work on trekking in drier regions of the earth. In his day plagiarism was fairly common. The the British author of the earlier work hadn't traveled in America, but only Africa and India as I recall.

 

[user 36911]

LME.......Ok, here's a picture of the Investarm GPR and I see what you mean by cut off. It does look bad. However, the new Great Plains Signature Series doesn't look like that and is much closer to the real Hawken. Although the real Hawken does look more graceful.

This is what you had. Investarm Lyman.

The new Pedersoli Signature Series.

 

[vintovka]

I think it's a very nice Hawken re-make, but I can't say who made it. Are there any makings on the barrel(s) other than the caliber designation and the "Black Powder Only" graffiti? It appears to have the Griffith Tool Company breechplug and "comma" shaped snail, as on original J&S Hawkens. I'm not sure what to make of the trigger guard, which is a much thicker, heavier casting than you normally see, especially at the top of the scroll. The triggers, too, seem a little unusual. The front trigger has a subtle curve, and the small "web" at the back of the front trigger may be unusual enough to help identify it. I like the dark finish, which I believe is very authentic. I think on originals the wedges or barrel keys typically went in from the left, with the heads on the side opposite the lock.

Is that rear sight adjustable for elevation?

I'm not sure I fully understand the comments that accompany the photos. Did you assemble the rifle from parts? Do the photos show it before or after refinishing?

In any event, I think it is a fine Hawken-style rifle. I've no idea who made it, but it's one I would be very pleased to own.

Notchy Bob

Short answer i assembled it. Found gorgeous stock at gunshow. No barrel, lock ect. I thought it was an original and bought for what is now low pocket change. The finish on it is ACRAGLAS!!!!, The absurdly low cost, figure and style made me buy it. At another show i found two, Brand new, Unused, plugless Browning MTN rifle barrels. A .54 and a .45 . Had sights but thats it. I think they were stock parts from after the rifles were discontinued. You are 100% correct about the Griffith plugs, tangs and lock. Stock was originally inletted for them so a no brainer. Triggers, guard and misc came from shop parts drawers. The underrib, thimbles, under logs came from shop stock and made on my lathe and milling machine. Shoots dead on with either barrel but very heavy for these old arms with the .45 barrel. When finished it will be cased as a 2 barrel set with accoutrements.

I like reviving otherwise hopeless projects and this one might pass as an original at 50 feet. FWIW i fell into some very fancy curly maple stocks and barrels for a beford and tenn mtn style rifles which will be my next challenge. Scrounging parts as we speak and in search of a wood saavy type near Florence Oregon to help with inletting as Mr. Arthritis and Uncle Carpal tunnel have given me the "fecal touch" when it comes to wood.

The snail on the Griffith looks the best IMHO and it directs flame and fragments away from rifle and shooters eyes. I think Snail shape and function are early ergonomic/safety features. I cannot imagine the trapper hunters of the day not considering an eye injury in the middle of nowhere as life threatening. Safely Directing the flame and flash away was a must and dictated design as well as function.

 

[Norman Brooks]

A Hawken and a Hawken style.