GRRRRR venting..sighting in woes again

[54MAN]

soooooo back to sighting in again...last time i tried this was last year before deer season...i know i know i dont get to shoot enough... between the closest range being 40 min drive and costing 13 bucks not counting gas and bullets...and between the army making me work crazy shifts all week....so yea havent had as much time as i would like... but looks like i will have alot more time...THAT being said at the time i purchased round balls for both (cva deer hunter 50. and lyman trade rifle 54.) 2 diff sizes for both calls... and 3 diff patch thickness for each.... after multiple trips i came to the discovery that NO MATTER what ball and combo i used the rifling cut the patches...no issues with blowing or tearing.... just freakin cutting nice slits...and accuracy....SUCKED... they ended up getting cleaned and put away as i was put on a new assignment that kept me out of the woods all season.... back to it... ive set the lead balls on the back shelf to switch back to once the rifling has dulled down some...on to conicals... the ROT in both rifles are the stinkin 1-48...(k maybe not stinking just not what i prefer).. decided on 2 conicals...great plains hunters (54) on top of a lubed wad for better gas seal...the 50. i got the PA conicals... kinda experimenting as i hear 1-48 is generally to slow and if not on the slow side...so the PA are 240 gr..VERY short..so should have to issues with the slow twist...again over a wad for gas seal... took only the 50 to the range first (learned my lesson about bring 2 that have issues at the same time lol) SO cva deer hunter 1-48 ROT with 240 gr conicals... with a SCOPE..yes i purchased the mounts and mounted a HUGE (8-34-44) scope... no i dont plan on keeping it on but for groupings... :thumbsup: started at 25....good to go...3 inches high... tight group.... load at this point is 85 gr of P pyrodex (i know goex is better but this is what i have ) so no issues... move out to 100 (freakin range wont let people shoot at 50) first shot....about 6 inches high (surprised but happy to be on paper) second shot TOUCHING the first...at this point im breathing a sigh of relief thinking im about to be in the free and clear....3rd shot... 10 low and 3 left.....4th shot...just 6 low...5th shot.. about 10 low and 5 right...6th shot...not on paper...7th shot let a friend shoot to see what would happen... about 2 low and 2 right from the first 2 shots.... 8th friend shoots again...off paper... i shoot several more loads varying powder charge... hit and miss (literally on the paper) i always swab between every shot..now im ****** and frustrated and pack up to shoot more rational guns that i can run 3 diff types of ammo throw and poi only changes a couple inches between loads lol.... SOOOO i will be attempting to do again this week...took the scope off...OTHER than the small chance the scope gave up the ghost while on the muzzy even tho its never had issues before... any ideas on what to try this time around? im not perfect but with a good scope i am very capable of one hole groups with a good rest and my good ole hand loads... so while im positive an open group would be my fault... but not the drastic manure that it was throwing...and i adjusted the lock so the trigger is a nice gritty 4 pounds lol sooo muzzy experts GO

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I’m thinking if the barrel is slicing your patches, it probably is also causing the conicals to shed lead as they go down the bore. You need to lap the bore smooth before trying any thing else, IMHO.

 

[54MAN]

sheesh...not the answer i wanted to hear lol im guessing they sell kits for this?

 

[bcprewitt75]

Try J-B bore paste. Has super fine abrasives in it and good for polishing bores and smoothing up tool marks.

 

[54MAN]

and...soak a swab in it or smear it all over a cloth? is that something i can buy at auto zone? (and if there is something like that at autozone that would be perfect lol and another thing..i notice even tho the ROT are the same in both rifles the cva has more grooves and they are.. short... and the lyman has very wide grooves... narrow vs wide grooves show any pref to conical vs patch and ball?

 

[Semisane]

Dang 54MAN, trying to read that post made my eyes cross. :grin: How about trying a few Capitals at the beginning of sentences. one period at the end, and a few paragraph spaces here and there. It would make for a more enjoyable read.

 

[tecum-tha]

What the heck are you using wads for with conicals?
What kind of patching do you use with round balls?
Pre-lubed? Round cut out already?
What do you use to swab the bore?
Invest $20 into Dutch Schoultz "Black Powder Accuracy" and follow his suggestions. Lapping the bore to dull the edges is a good idea, although about 100-200 rounds would take care of that...

 

[Stony]

It seems to me you haven't found the powder charge YOUR gun likes. You need to pick one gun and find what load that gun likes. Don't worry if it's GROUPING 2 inches high and 3 inches to the left. Just find the powder charge that produces tight groups. Once you find that powder charge, then you can adjust the sights. Every gun is different. You could take two guns off the assembly line, one made just seconds after the other and they will have different powder charges that work best for them. The difference might be only 5 grains or as much as 15 grains but each gun has a powder charge that works best in that gun. Find the powder charge for the gun you want to hunt with first, and only work with one gun at a time. Good luck.

 

[majg1234]

what he said shoot for groups first once consistant THEN adjust sights,I use red rubbing compound followed by white compound followed by Flitz or mothers to dress the bore,Been doing it for years even with my CF rifles. seems to settle them in fairly quickly,between types of compound I clean them with alcohol swabs untill I don't see any compound.About 10 strokes each is a good start. Good luck

 

[54MAN]

Ok, better punctuation. That will be harder then getting my rifles on target... I used 3 patches, the first 1 was the bore butter pre lubed .010 and the second was bore butter .015 The third was .018 pillow ticking
Maybe i was using incorrect terminology but the "wad is like a pre lubed 54 cal or 50 cal patch about 3/16 thick that i read you put as a barrier between the powder charge and the conical to help with the gas seal...i don't see how it would really help the seal with that much pressure behind it but enough people recommended it, and my groups where inconsistent so it wouldn't hurt to try.
I swab with just a piece of cloth, wipes out enough fowling to make loading easy regardless of how many shots i run...and im not making adjustments after i got it on paper, the ref to where the shots where are to give you guys an idea how inconsistent its being.

 

[William O.]

Try J-B bore paste. Has super fine abrasives in it and good for polishing bores and smoothing up tool marks.

I second that for trying JB's bore paste which you can find at Track of the Wolf as well as other ML supply stores. Smear a little bit on a cleaning patch and run it down the bore a couple dozen times, repeat. You will need to clean the bore after all this swabbing just like you had been to the range but it should help accuracy improve.
The 1:48 ROT can deliver great accuracy but whether or not your muzzle loaders will shoot PRB and conicals equally well is going to depend more on the depth of the rifling itself. For what it's worth, my .54 Lyman Trade Rifle will give me 2 inch groups at 75 yards using a .530 ball, .018 pillow ticking lubed with beeswax and olive oil and 85 grains of 2f Goex and won't group worth beans using 3f. I would also recommend using .015 pre-lubed Ox Yoke patches such as these (http://www.kitterytradingpost.com/product.php/prodid/10814) if you are just pressed for time and cannot cut/lube your own. IMHO you just need to find a pound of Goex and work up a load using PRB for only one of your ML'ers then practice as much as you can with it.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I do not think J-B Paste does much to remove barrel tooling marks. They guarantee it will not remove barrel steel - just lead fouling.

But the action of polishing will likely help - just from minor wear of sharp edges.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Just a thought - check the holes in the targets for evidence of those conicals entering at an angle. GW

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

Sell it to the first guy who comes along with the money that you dont know.. J/K I have to agree with the other comments play around with powder charges and types. I had a gun that sprayed rounds as well and changed from black podwer to pyrodex against my will but tried and it tighted the groups right up. Also others will cringe in here but try not swabbin the barrel after every shot.. Most people don't know and I will elt you in on a secret as an Army sniper the guns shoot better with a fouled barrel in fact the barrels are seldom punched until the gun needs it bad or around 200 shoots. Not feasable for a smokepole I know but even after cleaning the barrel we run a round throught the barrel to refoul it. Give it a shot might shoot better that way ya never know..

 

[excess650]

Hollow base conicals shouldn't have a wad under them. The idea of the hollow base is to expand and form the seal. The powder gas is embedding your wad into the hollow base.

I would use the pillow ticking and mink oil or even vegetable shortening for a patch lube.

You mentioned "auto parts store", so look for a tube of valve grinding compound. Put it on a jag with a TIGHT patch and run it up and down the bore. Use a guide of some sort to keep your rod from rubbing the muzzle. Your sharp edges may be left over from cutting the grooves, but the tops of the lands may still be rough from the reamer.

I prefer real BP, but if Pyrodex is all you have access to, you'll have to use it. Be sure to clean well and oil your bore.

 

[54MAN]

ight valve grinding compound is the first on my to do list then... SO the wads should only be used with flat based conicals?

I may even give the patch and balls another try after lapping the barrels..If worse came to worst do any companies make drop in replacement barrels for the lyman?

 

[Rat Trapper]

I've had good luck with ox-yoke prelubed felt wads under Hornady great plains bullets.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

I fired lapped a rifle. I’ve only had to do this once but the results were great. I used 600 grit valve lapping compound to start. First clean the bore thoroughly. Use water/soap, followed by any good solvent. I used Kroil. Then I used J-B paste to clean out any lead. I cleaned out the J-B paste with some more Kroil patches followed by some dry patches.

Now I covered the patch of tightest ball/patch combination I had with 600 lapping compound. Poured 25 grains of powder down the bore and loaded the ball/patch with the lapping compound then fired it. Clean the bore, not swab, but clean and repeat. After about 15 rounds I switched to 800 grit compound on the patches. Fired 5 of those rounds the same as the ones with the 600 grit compound and thoroughly cleaned the bore.

It turned a shallow grooved, patch cutting, menace to clean rifle into a sweetheart of a shooter. A few cautions; if your rifle has a patent breach make sure you use enough powder to over fill the chamber a bit but use the least amount of powder you can. I had a can of GOEX Pinnacle I wouldn’t use for anything else, but for this it doesn’t matter. Cleaning between shots and afterwards is critical. I hope that helps.