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frizzen spring adjustment...?

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the Black Spot

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sorry this computer doesn't let me do searches very well, takes a coons age.

i have a pedersoli kentucky, small lock. after reading the thread on "flints" i realized my frizzen is hard to close and i have slight chatter marks on it. any way to adjust the spring on these? thanks in advance. :bow:
 
You can file the spring down to reduce tension but before doing that try to work on the part of the frizzen that rubs on the spring. Some locks have a small wheel there but I am thinking the Pedersoli does not. If that is the case, you can polish the hump that rides on the frizzen spring and maybe even sand it down a little first. Put a little grease or oil on there to keep it lubricated. Often that will solve the issue. Filing the spring risks compromising the integrity of the part and may lead to premature breakage.
 
i am learning a lot here too but maybe using lead instead of the leather in jaws would help on chatter marks on frizzen before you have to do something with the spring tension.
 
First oil the pivot screw/pin at the front of the frizzen to make sure that the frizzen is opening and closing easily.

Then, remove the frizzen from the lockplate( you probably will have to remove the frizzen spring first), and check the bottom of the " cam"- that small projection below the flashpan that makes contact with the upper arm of the frizzen spring. The two contact surfaces should be mirror smooth, and oiled. Do that first before going any further with any modification of the frizzen or spring.

If the frizzen is still resisting the flint, usually this occurs because the upper arm continues on a straight line, and to the rear of the lockplate from where the contact point of the cam to the arm occurs. The cam has to " climb a mountain", compressing the spring arm further, BEFORE the frizzen can pop open.

a. By reducing the height of the cam, you can reduce the amount of pressure of the frizzen spring on the cam, and lighten up the tension of the spring on the frizzen. The Frizzen spring is also known as a " feather " spring, Because ITS ONLY FUNCTION is to keep the frizzen closed when the barrel is pointed down to the ground. This is a very sensitive job to perform, and for that reason, unless you are very experienced, and patient at doing fine polishing work, I don't recommend this method of " fix".

b. By heating the spring arm up to soften it, you can bend the upper arm so that it flattens out just beyond or to the rear of the point of contact with the cam. Then you have to heat it up to reharden it, and then you have to temper it to get it to function correctly as a spring. Because most people don't have the equipment or skill to do this kind of Annealing, Hardening, and Tempering of springs, I don't recommend this method as a " fix", either.

c. What I do recommend is grinding a small dish in the spring immediately to the rear of point of contact by the cam to the upper arm of the spring. The dish does not have to be very deep. I don't go deeper then 1/4 the thickness of the spring arm at that point. A couple of thousandths of an inch of metal removed is enough. I don't even use a grinding bit, but rather a sanding disc on my dremel tool to do this stock removal method.

Mark the spot there the Cam touches the spring when the frizzen is closed. Draw a line on the side of the spring arm reflecting this location, in case you remove the line across the spring's width while sanding and polishing.

The purpose of the dish is to allow that cam to swing out into open air, for must a small portion of a second, so that the frizzen opens before the spring arm comes back up and stops the cam from moving rearward.

All sanding and polishing has to be done with the long axis of the spring arm- never sand or file across the spring, or you will create a weak spot that will eventually fail and the spring will break. When I am sanding in that dish, I put my thumb nail right at the Line I made across the spring where the cam contacts the arm when the frizzen is closed. This keeps the sanding disc from moving too far back, unless I want it to. I want the edge of the dish to begin just at that line. The dish is maybe 5/16" across, and .005-.008" deep. You do have to check this by trial and error, as each lock is different, and some are going to need more or less metal removed to achieve the result.

I also reduce the width of the contact point of the bottom of the cam where it rubs against the spring arm. I am talking a surface that may be flat, but is only 1/32" wide at most. I want the frizzen to stay closed when its suppose to be closed, and not open when you shake the gun, or bump the gun. But, I also want it to open with no more than 3 lbs of tension on that frizzen. ( see my article on this forum on Shooting and Tuning Flintlocks where I describe how to test the tension weight on a frizzen. ) The width of that contact surface of the cam is largely going to determine how hard or easy it will be to get that frizzen to move enough to swing out over that dish. You can take a cam down small enough to have only 1 lb. of tension on the frizzen, and the frizzen works properly every time.

In fact, the test for a well tuned flintlock involves removing the frizzen or feather spring from the lock entirely, and firing the gun without it in place. The weight of the frizzen, the angle of its face, and the angle of contact with the frizzen should be enough to cut the sparks needed, and throw both the frizzen open, and the sparks down into the pan.

The benchrest flintlock shooters don't even put feather springs in their locks, because they are never needed. Think about what they are doing. These are target shooters, shooting long, heavy barreled guns. You are not allowed to prime your gun until its pointed down range. Only when the barrel is pointed down range, and the range is declared safe and open are you allowed to prime and fire. The gun is mounted on a bench rest. The frizzen is not closed until the priming powder is put into the pan.

These shooters will often put a piece of leather washer between the lockplate and the frizzen, on the pivot screw/pin, to slow the movement of the frizzen when it rebounds after opening.( this prevents the frizzen from striking the top of your flint hard enough to break the flint!) But that washer does not offer any resistance to the frizzen being popped open when the gun if fired. ONLY the weight of the frizzen( Less than 8 oz.) the angle of the face, and the angle of impact of the flint to the face, along with gravity( reflected not only in the weight, but by any inertia to the frizzen moving upward) cause any delay to the frizzen popping open on Bench rest flintlocks.

If you lock is tuned properly, it will creates sparks all day long to ignite your priming powder. Once the angles are met, all you will see is scrape marks along the face of the frizzen, but not gouges, PROVIDED that your flint is not loose in the jaws, or that you are not using too soft a material as a flint wrap. Soft materials act like a shock absorber, and can produce tiny chatter marks on the face below the highest point of contact of the flint's edge to the face of the frizzen.

The main benefit of reducing the tension of the feather spring on the frizzen is lengthening flint life. At the cost of flints these days, its becoming a factor in how many times you can shoot your gun. That, and the price of Black Powder. I expect flints in a well-tuned lock to give me 100 or more strikes before they have to be replaced. Some give more than 120 strikes, and occasionally we hear of a flint giving more than 150 strikes before it has to be replaced. When you compare those numbers to that which was expected of a Brown Bess musket, where a new flint was provided with every " cartridge" box of 20 rds, there is a substantial difference in performance of the locks.

Paul
 
If this is a new gun, just oil the frizzen screw and move the frizzen open and closed 500 times.

Unless you are good at putting metal back on don't take any off.

If you are good, you can file and polish the feather spring 'evenly' on the top where the frizzen rides and also narrow the side of the feather to more tapered.

This is trial and erro, maybe counting file strokes. That might be on a spring like this 6 strokes off the side making more feather, and 6 stokes off the top and polishing the top, test.

Then 6 more each and test.

But if this is a new gun I would hand lap these parts with just oil, like 3 in 1 oil, sewwing machine oil, and not some modern moly base oil.


I forgot I was registered here, and so am not familar with this site and how it works.I thought I just found a new site too......
 
Just a thought about lightening the feather or frizzen spring.

If it is too light the gun may start breaking flints.

What can happen is when the frizzen is pushed open by the flint and it snaps fully open, if the spring is too light, rather than trapping the frizzen open it will deflect and then snap the frizzen closed again.
When this happens, the frizzen can strike the flint and break it and then rebound from the impact leaving the frizzen standing open like it should be.

This all happens so fast that it can't be seen with the naked eye leaving the owner standing there wondering how his flint got broken.
 
the Black Spot said:
sorry this computer doesn't let me do searches very well, takes a coons age.

i have a pedersoli kentucky, small lock. after reading the thread on "flints" i realized my frizzen is hard to close and i have slight chatter marks on it. any way to adjust the spring on these? thanks in advance. :bow:

OK, a couple of fairly direct comments / points are...so you have a few chatter marks...and you think the frizzen is hard to close...but compared to what...and so what?
Ignition & reliability are always at issue but you didn't mention a thing about having problems...if your ignition and reliability are good, then don't sweat it...if it ain't broke don't try to fix it.

IMO, modern production, reasonable quality locks do not require the litany of shade-tree mechanic approaches advocated here in lengthy detail and you should certainly not start filing and grinding anything.

To do so suggests that the thousands of dollars of design engineering and testing were all screwed up...and that some stranger on the Internet has a magic bullet for you that will "fix" all your problems in your garage with files, grinders, sandpaper, etc...I don't think so...don't start making alterations to the lock.

Keeping a lock clean and lightly lubed is business as usual...but discard all the hype about grabbing a handful of tools and filing this, grinding that, sanding over here, bending over there, etc...or you will indeed end up with a lock that is no longer reliable and gives poor ignition...with a voided warranty.

If chatter marks bother you, look to your flint positioning...make sure its striking the frizzen at an obvious downward shaving angle...then go shoot and enjoy
 
Roundball: I am NOT SUGGESTING anything.

I am SAYING it!

If you don't agree, that is okay, but be very clear what I am writing here.

I know from years of personal experience, training, and education what makes a well-tuned lock, and what does NOT!

This is an open forum, and you are entitled to your thoughts. Just don't put words in my mouth, please!

Thank you. Paul :thumbsup:
 
the Black Spot said:
sorry this computer doesn't let me do searches very well, takes a coons age.

i have a pedersoli kentucky, small lock. after reading the thread on "flints" i realized my frizzen is hard to close and i have slight chatter marks on it. any way to adjust the spring on these? thanks in advance. :bow:

Once I was given a flintlock to work on because the frizzen was too hard to move like it should, before I did anything I checked the frizzen bolt.

The bolt was screwed in and torqued too tight, it caused the frizzen to bind and move with great difficulty. I loosen the screw and retighten it to just "snug" and it worked fine.

I then gave the frizzen bolt a few drops of oil, just for good measure.
 
In this case, you should probably take the screw, chuck it up in a drill, and file down the underside of the head so that it draws down tight without clamping down on the frizzen.
 
I would tend to agree with Roundball, is it breaking up flints?, are there any problems other than some marks on the frizzen?, if it is new shoot it for a while a lot of little bugs will work themselves out.
 
Well, I sure have no problems with paulvallandigham's methods, other than he and I have no idea of the expertise of the owner. A great deal of these workings call for a certain amount of Judgement. That comes from time and working with these devices.

For sure someone into the modern idea of "Right Now" fast is going to mess things up very quicky.

Any gun will benifit from a light stoning and polishing, if it is a new gun, but taking too much metal is a Royal sin, and or changing angles on things.

The modern gun company known as Kimber tells you to fire their guns 500 times to 'Break it in" which is a joke, but that's their joke i guess.

The same thing can be done in a hours time by a man who KNOWS what he is doing with out firing a shot.

A heck of a lot of newbies these days have no idea what oil is.. Or that working parts by hand can accomplish a better fit, with out ever taking a part off the gun.

In black powder there is no way around NOT getting your hands dirty anyway, so a drop of oil here and there isn't going to be much of a problem anyway.
 
HOPE NOT GETTING OFF THIS TOPIC.

i just got new lock from t/c for my brothers .50 cal flintlock.

they sent a agate stone with it.

i fire it in dark 5 times to see if it sparks.

it did but put about 5 marks 66% up from bottom..

i turned it both ways, bevel down and up and still put a mark you can feel with your fingernail in frizzen.

my lock is same and i use fuller flints and i get some but not like 5 on 5 shots, i get like washboard type marks.
 
You make a good point, but I refuse to think of members here as bumbling idiots- or at least until they prove otherwise! I began learning about locks when I bought an imported Percussion lock that was so bad I could not list all the things wrong with it. I had no one to turn to, so I got a spring vise and began taking it apart. I measured everything, and fixed things that were crooked that needed to be straight,polished contact points that needed to be smoother, tightened screws that were too loose, loosened screws that were too tight, fixed the angle of the drum and nipple, then ground the face of the hammer so It would strike the nipple squarely, etc.

By the time I fixed that horrible lock and made the gun a reliable shooters, other members of the club were asking me to help them with their lousy percussion locks! :shocked2:

I have know people ( in my own family) who grab a large wood rasp when a jeweler's file is needed, but I want to think we don't have many of them lurking around here! :blah: :nono: :rotf:

If anyone needs specific guidance on doing these little tuning up chores to their locks, I am available by PT to help them out. I have done so with a number of members here privately. If someone IS all thumbs, and admits defeat :surrender: , they can contact me about working on their lock, and arrange to send it to me. Some locks need major work. Others I have done in a few minutes.

You are correct. Much of tuning has to do with experience, and judgment. The first time I wrote an article about tuning locks, I left out way too many steps, and things to check. I have gotten better, but I am always worried that I have forgotten something important to do. There are things I check on a lock routinely that rarely need to be fixed, but can cause major problems if they do exist. ( Like a bent lockplate!) I don't even consciously note that I am checking the lockplate to see that it is flat( On the inside, where all the internal parts are connected), and that scares me sometimes. It makes me wonder what else I fail to note! :shocked2: :redface: :hatsoff:
 
Folks:
I'm not sure why folks seem to think that the frizzen will be unmarked after the flint takes a few whacks at it.

Of course the frizzen will have marks on it after its been used.

Are most of the marks on my frizzens nice smooth marks? No.
In theory a well tuned lock with exactly the right flint located in exactly the right place hitting the frizzen at exactly the right location will leave a nice smooth series of streaks down the face but, this doesn't happen very often.

As long as the frizzen is sparking well and not breaking flints don't worry about it. :thumbsup:
 
"Of course the frizzen will have marks on it after its been used."

Ya suppose it might have sumpthin' ta do with the little hunks of steel the flint scraped off as it traveled down the frizzen? :hmm:
 
Just another example of armchair theory vs. actual knowledge from real hands on experience at the range and in the field
 
I fail to see any "armchair theory" in any of the posts that have been made in this topic.

Perhaps with all of your knowledge which you've gained by shooting flintlock arms fewer years than myself you could enlighten us about it?
 
I just noticed the "hard to close" part, gotta find my glasses, as you have most likely figured this out and have the methods to deal with it from a number of sources, it will of course need attention, good luck and enjoy the journey
 

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