Frizzen hardness and spark temperature

[Joe Yanta]

I have a L&R late model English lock on my self made Leman trade rifle. I finished the rifle maybe 10 years ago and I am embarrassed to admit that I have never fired it. But I am about ready to do so :grin:

I get an excellent shower of sparks. The sparks are red and uniform in color. From my knife making and blacksmithing days I would estimate that the temperature of the sparks to be around 1450-1500 degrees F. I've read on line that the ignition point of black powder to be in the 550-700 degree F range so I would think that my lock is doing its job and the powder should ignite OK using English flints.

I could heat treat the frizzen and make it harder. I would think that this would produce hotter sparks maybe thinking into the yellow range of 2200 degrees F. Would that give me faster ignition?

Being that the frizzen would now harder and using the same English flints would I get less sparks?

If so. Would more cooler sparks be better than fewer hot sparks?

Your thoughts and comments would be very appreciated.

Thanks
Joe

 

[M. De Land]

Hotter and more sparks is always better than cooler and less of them.
Butttttttttttt they have to be directed into the pan charge not bouncing all over the place.
This is where proper lock geometry and frizzen spring tension is critical!

 

[Black Hand]

You still need to temper the frizzen before use. It can also be too hard which, making it brittle and the flint might not bite, resulting in NO sparks whatsoever.

The spark is only part of the ignition process - look at your touch hole size, location, pan size and the directionality of the sparks.

But BEFORE you do anything - shoot it. If it goes bang consistently, leave it alone. If it isn't broken, don't fix it....

 

[ZUG]

Spot On -- :hatsoff: Shoot it first - it probably does not need a thing done to it :v .

 

[hanshi]

:thumbsup: Best advice for you on this thread.

 

[mr.flintlock]

I agree with Zug and Hanshi! Don't do anything to it until you shoot it. I have used a number of L&R locks and every one has had a properly hardened frizzen. Also, use a good English flint of the correct size. They are sold by Track of the Wolf. Stay away from cut flints.

 

[MountainRanger]

I ditto the advice on cut flints... IMHO they are garbage, but I'm just colorful in my comments hehe.

Track really is a good place to get good English flints. They will even hand sort for any special requests like low-crowns on the flints you order. They are great!

 

[Joe Yanta]

Thanks for all your suggestions and comments.

I wasn't going to do a thing until I shot it. And I have TOW English flints in the jaws. I don't really know why I was thinking red sparks are cold. Maybe I was used to seeing the white sparks from those ferro fire starting rods.

Joe

 

[Joe Yanta]

Thinking that it wouldn't hurt a thing to dribble a few grains of black powder in the pan and test the ignition so I charged the pan and touched it off.

Absolutely no problem at all. Very quick! I don't think it would matter much if you have red sparks, yellow sparks or white sparks.

One think was quite apparent. It was a lot quieter that snapping off a percussion cap. And it quadrupled my enthusiasm about getting out and shooting it. :grin:

Joe

 

[M. De Land]

Don't forget to clean the barrel as well as the pan, cock and frizzen as the flash will foul the breech area of the barrel interior from pan firing.

 

[M. De Land]

I have quite a few of the English flints from TOTW but have been experimenting with the Keokuk heat treated chert I've been knapping arrow points from and find it to be at least the equal of the stuff purchased from TOTW.
It does not fracture as easily and seems to make at least as many sparks.
If your into knapping at all I recommend a try of this chert as all of my flints are made from the remnants of point knapping and there for are basically free.
I gave five to an ardent and very fine competitive pistol shot to test against his regular English flints and he prefers them now and wants more made. The test flints were knapped very flat and thin making them easy to keep a sharp edge on which is what I think he likes.

 

[Larry Akers]

have been experimenting with the Keokuk heat treated chert I've been knapping arrow points from basically free.

FYI, chert (and jasper) will wear your frizzen faster than will flint because they are harder rocks. All quality frizzens are now made of tool steel and hardened all the way through so this is not so much of an issue as when frizzens were only casehardened.

 

[LRB]

Best spark often depends on the lock. Red, red-orange sparks burn longer and may be best for most locks, while white, and yellow-white sparks are much hotter, they are smaller, burn much faster, and may sometimes burn out before igniting the powder. I've seen that happen.

 

[M. De Land]

Could be but what I have read in my knapping books is that chert or flint are of the same hardness on the diamond scale which is a 7, a diamond being 10.
I have read that English or French flint has a bit more silicone in it than American chert but not enough to make it any harder on the diamond scale.
The keokuk chert does seem tougher than the Black flints I've been buying from TOTW though.
I'll keep and eye on the frizzen wear but so far cannot tell any difference.

 

[Joe Yanta]

I'm in the process of making a few knapping tools. I have a good supply of English flint from nodes I used for flint striker kits. I would like to eventually be able to knap my own flints. I'll start out learning to sharpening edges. The flints I have are Fuller flints from TOW. I've visited the Keokuk quarry page and would like to try some of their gun flints.

I wonder how much a diamond flint would cost :hmm:

Joe

 

[M. De Land]

I don't think a diamond would work at all to produce many sparks as they are way to hard and would cut through a frizzen like hot cheese.
I say this because I have a diamond dressing tool to face and shape grinding wheels with and it does not generate any sparks while cutting the wheels down.
As far as the Keokuk chert, I was told by the people I purchased it from that heat treated chert would not be any good for gun flints but being an experimenter I had to give it a try and found it not only worked well but lasted just as long, perhaps a bit longer than the black flints I was buying from TOTW.
One feature about them I really like is that they can be made much flatter/thinner and still not break from the frizzen impact of my pistol.
I have given two other shooters some for their rifles to see if this observation holds true with long gun locks.
The pistol guy I mentioned before is convinced they are better and wants more made.
I don't want to get into the gun flint business but felt I needed more opinions than just my own on how they work an could then better recommend an alternative to folks who can make their own.
These are some of the test flints knapped and ground from various types of chert I had samples off. The Keokuk chert is the light colored stuff.

Here is one in my Kentucky pistol.

 

[PaulTBarton]

I have a L&R late model English lock on my self made Leman trade rifle. I finished the rifle maybe 10 years ago and I am embarrassed to admit that I have never fired it. But I am about ready to do so :grin:

I get an excellent shower of sparks. The sparks are red and uniform in color. From my knife making and blacksmithing days I would estimate that the temperature of the sparks to be around 1450-1500 degrees F. I've read on line that the ignition point of black powder to be in the 550-700 degree F range so I would think that my lock is doing its job and the powder should ignite OK using English flints.

I could heat treat the frizzen and make it harder. I would think that this would produce hotter sparks maybe thinking into the yellow range of 2200 degrees F. Would that give me faster ignition?

Being that the frizzen would now harder and using the same English flints would I get less sparks?

If so. Would more cooler sparks be better than fewer hot sparks?

Your thoughts and comments would be very appreciated.

Thanks
Joe

Shoot it first, and if it does not fit your needs then play with it. My opinion, it appears by your description, it will work fine.

BartSr