Flint or Frizzen problem?

[pacanis]

I was shooting my new-to-me TC Hawken today. Really fast lock time... for a while.
It had the TC two edged flint in it and I noticed it was hitting way low on the frizzen. Maybe just 1/4" up from the pan. I'm guessing the ignition timing slowed as the spark got weaker from using the flint. So I changed it to one of those English flints from TOTW so it would hit higher up.

I could not get it to spark. I turned it over, tried another new flint, nothing.
I turned the TC flint around to the side that looked like it has seen some use, but still felt sharp, and the gun sparked and fired fine again.

I'm wondering if the frizzen is the problem. Or maybe it's simpler to look for the yellowish colored flints that TC uses, which it seems everyone is out of or they've been discontinued. I'm thinking I can find flints of the same type though. I just can't believe the better (I thought) flints would not spark.

 

[pacanis]

Never mind.
I found a thread on Hunting PA that said TC's are known for this. Poor hardening, not deep enough... that sort of thing. That's what I was thinking, that only the bottom is producing sparks because it's hardened better. I don't have a shorter 3/4x3/4 in an English flint to try though.
I have a Lyman frizzen on the way. That seems to be the fix after a little fitting.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Never mind.
I found a thread on Hunting PA that said TC's are known for this. Poor hardening, not deep enough... that sort of thing. That's what I was thinking, that only the bottom is producing sparks because it's hardened better. I don't have a shorter 3/4x3/4 in an English flint to try though.
I have a Lyman frizzen on the way. That seems to be the fix after a little fitting.

Use a real flint.

 

[pacanis]

Use a real flint.

I thought those Fuller English flints were real flints.

 

[Pete G]

I thought those Fuller English flints were real flints.

They are

 

[64Springer]

Use a real flint.

I know you know a lot more than me about flinters.

What is real flint and what is fake flint"

Betcha lots of folks here would like to know the difference.

Thanks.

 

[dave_person]

Hi 64Springer,
I believe a lot of TCs came with cut agates rather than flints. The flints generally are better. The answer to your question about what is real flint is an interesting one and maybe folks might like to know the detailed answer, although I understand this amounts to historical trivia. Technically, flint only comes from parts of Europe and England. What we find in North America is chert, which is chemically the same but with a major difference. Both flint and chert are sedimentary rocks containing a matrix of micro crystals of quartz. But the difference is the water content in the rock. Real flint is hydrous meaning it contains water and has not dried out. It is mined either from caves or from deep shafts in which the rock has not been exposed to conditions that dry it out. The water content keeps the flint from being too brittle allowing it to knap easily and keep a sharp edge longer. Chert found above ground in river beds or other places is usually dried out (anhydrous), will work to produce sparks but is generally not nearly as long lasting as true flint, which is hydrous. When flints were shipped to North America from England and Europe, they were usually packed in barrels stored in damp cool places and often with damp rags on top.

dave

 

[Erwan]

When flints were shipped to North America from England and Europe, they were usually packed in barrels stored in damp cool places and often with damp rags on top.

I think you're right, I live in a region (Poitou) where flint production was important, and the fact is that for transport, flint barrels were always wet. At least that's what people still say today. Of course, I'm only talking about the blond flints of Poitou and Berry (the biggest producers) and not the black flints of Normandy, which are close in quality to English flints, but which I don't know well enough: as far as I know, there are no longer any flint knappers in this region of Normandy...

 

[pacanis]

They are

Thanks. That's what I thought.
Maybe Pathfinder didn't understand my OP.

 

[pacanis]

Hi 64Springer,
I believe a lot of TCs came with cut agates rather than flints. The flints generally are better. The answer to your question about what is real flint is an interesting one and maybe folks might like to know the detailed answer, although I understand this amounts to historical trivia. Technically, flint only comes from parts of Europe and England. What we find in North America is chert, which is chemically the same but with a major difference. Both flint and chert are sedimentary rocks containing a matrix of micro crystals of quartz. But the difference is the water content in the rock. Real flint is hydrous meaning it contains water and has not dried out. It is mined either from caves or from deep shafts in which the rock has not been exposed to conditions that dry it out. The water content keeps the flint from being too brittle allowing it to knap easily and keep a sharp edge longer. Chert found above ground in river beds or other places is usually dried out (anhydrous), will work to produce sparks but is generally not nearly as long lasting as true flint, which is hydrous. When flints were shipped to North America from England and Europe, they were usually packed in barrels stored in damp cool places and often with damp rags on top.

dave

I read somewhere that flint was also used as ballast on the ships.
And America's only resource for actual flint was to use that ballast in the ships that came over from England and stayed here.

 

[BBGun]

Someone made a comment that lots of different rocks would work and give spark, I didn't necessarily believe that and now I'm sure that's not true.

 

[pacanis]

Any rock needs a good carbon steel surface though.

I've got three steels from three different makers for flint and steel kits. Two spark great and one throws off very weak sparks. All with the same piece of flint or chert.

I did order some more "real" flints in what I think is the correct size and should strike the frizzen low like the TC flint does.
But I still plan on changing the frizzen to a Lymans. It appears to be a common upgrade.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Those cut agate flints are garbage. Your best bet is to dump them. Use English or the French amber flints.

If your flint has two cut edges, throw it away.

 

[pacanis]

Those cut agate flints are garbage. Your best bet is to dump them. Use English or the French amber flints.

If your flint has two cut edges, throw it away.

At least it got me shooting.
But I'm sure due to size and not quality.
I'm glad I had it.

 

[Vintage Gunsmith]

Thompson Center used to supply replacement frizzens for folks who complained about no longer getting sparks---caused by the flint wearing through the thin case hardening. As I recall, the company had a life time warranty on their Hawken rifles (I may be wrong on this). At any rate, I contacted TC on behalf of my customers, explained what I thought was the cause (I was correct) and asked for their help. They consequently sent me about a half dozen new frizzens which I installed on customers locks. In lieu of TC no longer offering this service (you can always ask), I would suggest taking the part, or the entire lock, to a knowledgeable gunsmith for either re-case hardening the striking surface or "shoeing" the face of the frizzen. I don't know if it is less expensive than continually having to purchase new replacement frizzens but, shoed frizzens seem to last a lot longer than simple case hardening. Another possibility is to educate your self on the case hardening process (there just has to be a U-tube article showing how to do it), obtain a can of Kasinite from Brownells, a propane torch and got to it. It's a lot more satisfying to correct the problem yourself and not spend bucks buying new frizzens.

 

[olskool]

where do you buy "real" flint? i buy the ones from stone wall creek outfitters, they work best for me. but are they real?

 

[pacanis]

Thompson Center used to supply replacement frizzens for folks who complained about no longer getting sparks---caused by the flint wearing through the thin case hardening. As I recall, the company had a life time warranty on their Hawken rifles (I may be wrong on this). At any rate, I contacted TC on behalf of my customers, explained what I thought was the cause (I was correct) and asked for their help. They consequently sent me about a half dozen new frizzens which I installed on customers locks. In lieu of TC no longer offering this service (you can always ask), I would suggest taking the part, or the entire lock, to a knowledgeable gunsmith for either re-case hardening the striking surface or "shoeing" the face of the frizzen. I don't know if it is less expensive than continually having to purchase new replacement frizzens but, shoed frizzens seem to last a lot longer than simple case hardening. Another possibility is to educate your self on the case hardening process (there just has to be a U-tube article showing how to do it), obtain a can of Kasinite from Brownells, a propane torch and got to it. It's a lot more satisfying to correct the problem yourself and not spend bucks buying new frizzens.

One of my friends does a little forging/knife making. I was going to give the TC frizzen to him to see if he could harden it. I'd just as soon not waste any time or money on it after reading others' results.

I have no intention of continually buying replacement frizzens. I doubt I'll ever put enough flint strikes across of the frizzen face to wear out the new Pedersoli one.