Flintlock flash guards for competitive tournaments

[Twisted_1in66]

I’ve never heard the National Park Service determining what granulation of powder to use!
I’ve been in Rev War reenacting about 35 years and this is news to me.
The SOLE purpose of a flash guard is to guard your file-mate on the right from getting splatted with burning powder. Period.
Installing one on a Bess or Charleville musket presents NO safety issues.
Frizzen covers are the second requirement.
As for loading, a flash guard presents no obstacle, at least for those with basic motor skills
As for other shooting venues and public range rules, I can’t say.

Spot on @PathfinderNC!

Although I've only been reenacting for about 25-years, I have never seen the NPS require the use of 2F powder either, which is a good thing. Nor does the BAR or Continental Line require the use of 2F. Some of the powders specifically being sold as Reenactment Powders are a pretty rough mixture of granulations. Since there are no ballistic performance concerns, the only thing that matters is that it goes off and mixed granules work fine.

It is no joke to catch a flash in your left cheek because someone doesn't have a flash guard in place and they are standing too close, especially when some of the granules continue to burn as they stick to your face. Been there, done that, don't recommend it. Before I got a flash guard for my first longrifle (Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle) I was allowed to participate in the reenactments twice, as long as I was the last one in line with no one else to my right. Hammer Stalls are absolutely required to participate in any reenactment because that is a safety issue.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have been to reenactments where powder was furnished by the hosting organization, and it was required to use that powder. Our artillery unit was gratefully thankful.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I’ve never heard the National Park Service determining what granulation of powder to use!

I have never seen the NPS require the use of 2F powder either, which is a good thing.

Before making statements like these and arguing may I suggest reading the NPS rules and regulations for black powder? My pictures demonstrating 2ff in the pan are a direct following of the rules.

They are easy to find online, all you need do is type it in and download the PDF. In there you will find absolutely no FFFF allowed, FFF ONLY allowed for cannon primers, no pistols allowed, size of loads (125 grains max for 18th century 60 grains 19th century) loose poured no wadding, no horns, and much more. The powder restrictions are worded much stronger with their own section than flash guards in fact.

I did my best to follow their rules demonstrating why I felt as I do regarding safety. It seemed inappropriate to follow some rules and ignore others.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Before making statements like these and arguing may I suggest reading the NPS rules and regulations for black powder? My pictures demonstrating 2ff in the pan are a direct following of the rules.

They are easy to find online, all you need do is type it in and download the PDF. In there you will find absolutely no FFFF allowed, FFF ONLY allowed for cannon primers, no pistols allowed, size of loads (125 grains max for 18th century 60 grains 19th century) loose poured no wadding, no horns, and much more. The powder restrictions are worded much stronger with their own section than flash guards in fact.

I did my best to follow their rules demonstrating why I felt as I do regarding safety. It seemed inappropriate to follow some rules and ignore others.

Don’t try and tell me what I can state here. Read my post. Specifically that “I have never heard of the National Park Service determining what powder granulations to use.”

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Before making statements like these and arguing may I suggest reading the NPS rules and regulations for black powder? My pictures demonstrating 2ff in the pan are a direct following of the rules.

They are easy to find online, all you need do is type it in and download the PDF. In there you will find absolutely no FFFF allowed, FFF ONLY allowed for cannon primers, no pistols allowed, size of loads (125 grains max for 18th century 60 grains 19th century) loose poured no wadding, no horns, and much more. The powder restrictions are worded much stronger with their own section than flash guards in fact.

I did my best to follow their rules demonstrating why I felt as I do regarding safety. It seemed inappropriate to follow some rules and ignore others.

Thanks for pointing that out and sending the current rules. My only real answer to that is that in my 25-years of reenacting I have NEVER had them check to see which granulation of powder you are using although they do a safety inspection of the arms each morning.

NPS is usually pretty strict in enforcing its rules including prohibiting battle reenactments on site where opposing forces move towards each other. I have reenacted at Yorktown multiple times including the 225th anniversary where it rained on us a lot. As always there, we were allowed to fire from behind the actual berms that were constructed during the siege, but not towards opposing forces and always with muskets and rifles elevated and aimed off to the side as opposed to directly across to where the British Reenactors actually are.

Battle reenactments are normally done off site of NPS properties where possible because they don't really allow opposing forces closing on each other on NPS grounds. At least not the ones in Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and North Carolina, as well as Vermont, New York, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts. So usually everyone camps at the NPS site such as Guilford Courthouse in North Carolina, but the battles take place at nearby parks or private property such as Country Park in Greenesboro, NC. That may be why I have never eexperienced or seen them look for the granulation of the powder.

I was surprised to see that regulation, so thanks again for providing it.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Thanks for pointing that out and sending the current rules.

NPS is usually pretty strict in enforcing its rules

was surprised to see that regulation, so thanks again for providing it.

I was a little concerned which is why I pulled up the rules. I remember going thru them when I did the pictures 10-15 years ago. For their purpose I had to follow the rules completely. It's incredibly common for the ruling regarding powder to be ignored for priming. I don't know when the last revision was. I do know that for "bangs" thier powder loads are "woof" not bang except if memory serves thier load for a 1 inch bore cannon was 2oz!!!!!

 

[FlinterNick]

Don’t try and tell me what I can state here. Read my post. Specifically that “I have never heard of the National Park Service determining what powder granulations to use.”

I’ve never heard of it either pathfinder, some folks are just to proud to let go of a failed argument, and need to take a bath in their own personal embellishments. .

 

[Commodore Swab]

Don’t try and tell me what I can state here. Read my post. Specifically that “I have never heard of the National Park Service determining what powder granulations to use.”

There are many things I have never heard of I usually keep quiet when I don't know.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I’ve never heard of it either pathfinder, some folks are just to proud to let go of a failed argument, and need to take a bath in their own embellishments. .

I suggest you read the NPS rules and regulations for black powder if you haven't heard of them. I posted an attachment so you can. . .

 

[PathfinderNC]

I suggest you read the NPS rules and regulations for black powder if you haven't heard of them. I posted an attachment so you can. . .

There are many things I have never heard of I usually keep quiet when I don't know

Those refs are from a particular park, are they not?
This NPS Policies guide ( below) makes no mention of powder grain size. Interesting.
At any rate, the thread is about Flash Guards. Do try and Keep focused

 

[PathfinderNC]

There are many things I have never heard of I usually keep quiet when I don't know.

I doubt you keep quiet about much then?

 

[FlinterNick]

Here ya go.View attachment 272794

Nock Lock with a Flash Guard, likely added later in the 1830, as it is an original part of the lock.

 

[FlinterNick]

Nock Lock with a Flash Guard, likely added later in the 1830, as it is an original part of the lock.

View attachment 273295

More Potsdam original flash guards ….

 

[PathfinderNC]

More Potsdam original flash guards ….

View attachment 273297

Your authoritative photo documentation of the historical use of Flash Guards helps ground this topic in actual fact, and not personal “belief”. Thanks.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Those refs are from a particular park, are they not?

No, national.
I look forward to seeing documentation stating they are flash guards designed to protect someone other than the person firing. The disagreement I had was their intended purpose. I have never disagreed that there were devices attached to pans. So far nick has shown devices which never was in doubt but to show their purpose the only evidence is a catalog where they are listed by a name that most people would identify them as.

 

[Tumbledown]

Before making statements like these and arguing may I suggest reading the NPS rules and regulations for black powder? My pictures demonstrating 2ff in the pan are a direct following of the rules.

They are easy to find online, all you need do is type it in and download the PDF. In there you will find absolutely no FFFF allowed, FFF ONLY allowed for cannon primers, no pistols allowed, size of loads (125 grains max for 18th century 60 grains 19th century) loose poured no wadding, no horns, and much more. The powder restrictions are worded much stronger with their own section than flash guards in fact.

I did my best to follow their rules demonstrating why I felt as I do regarding safety. It seemed inappropriate to follow some rules and ignore others.

I suspect those rules on powder size apply to those two sites specifically mentioned in that document, not NPS-wide.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I suspect those rules on powder size apply to those two sites specifically mentioned in that document, not NPS-wide.

I would love for that to be true. However, everything I have found states that is NPS standards. I have found many state parks an private events have chosen to simply use this document making it easy for them.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

No, national.
I look forward to seeing documentation stating they are flash guards designed to protect someone other than the person firing. The disagreement I had was their intended purpose. I have never disagreed that there were devices attached to pans. So far nick has shown devices which never was in doubt but to show their purpose the only evidence is a catalog where they are listed by a name that most people would identify them as.

I don't really understand your comment about looking for "documentation stating they are flash guards designed to protect someone other than the person firing." They don't do squat for the person firing the rifle or musket. The flash is well in front of their face and the flash, when the gun is fired, goes out to the side, not upwards or towards the shooter's face. The flash guard diverts it up as opposed to out to the side to the guy shooting next to you. The flash can be particularly strong if someone has enlarged the flash hole into the barrel.

Obviously you have never shot shoulder to shoulder in a line like the musket line formations used during the Rev War and commonly practiced by reenactors who are portraying soldiers of the line. I got a nice burn on my left cheek ONCE in Virginia when the flashguard on the musket next to me wasn't put on tight enough and it pivoted down. I can tell you from experience that BURNS! He apologized of course, took out his turn screw; swung the flashguard back up into place; and tightened it back down. After that happened to a few others, our group incorporated checking the tightness of the flashguard as part of the safety inspection each morning along with springing rammers to make sure there was not a ball in the barrel, hanging the rifle or gun by the trigger with the lock in half cock position to make sure it didn't slip, checking tightness of flint in the cock, etc.

None of that proves that they were in wide use during the Rev War, as so far they have only been in evidence on a few extant examples. However, it does definitely define their purpose as protecting the fellow next to you from a burned and speckled left cheek.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don't really understand your comment about looking for "documentation stating they are flash guards designed to protect someone other than the person firing." They don't do squat for the person firing the rifle or musket. The flash is well in front of their face and the flash, when the gun is fired, goes out to the side, not upwards or towards the shooter's face. The flash guard diverts it up as opposed to out to the side to the guy shooting next to you. The flash can be particularly strong if someone has enlarged the flash hole into the barrel.

Obviously you have never shot shoulder to shoulder in a line like the musket line formations used during the Rev War and commonly practiced by reenactors who are portraying soldiers of the line. I got a nice burn on my left cheek ONCE in Virginia when the flashguard on the musket next to me wasn't put on tight enough and it pivoted down. I can tell you from experience that BURNS! He apologized of course, took out his turn screw; swung the flashguard back up into place; and tightened it back down. After that happened to a few others, our group incorporated checking the tightness of the flashguard as part of the safety inspection each morning along with springing rammers to make sure there was not a ball in the barrel, hanging the rifle or gun by the trigger with the lock in half cock position to make sure it didn't slip, checking tightness of flint in the cock, etc.

None of that proves that they were in wide use during the Rev War, as so far they have only been in evidence on a few extant examples. However, it does definitely define their purpose as protecting the fellow next to you from a burned and speckled left cheek.

Flash guards for military use were more common on in Europe during the Napoleonic Wars, Prussia, Austria, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Russia had used flash guards on military arms.

The big issue with flash guards was they were expensive, we often don’t realize it today, but brass or steel was not cheap in the 18th century, having a few thousand flash guards made was a significant expense to a government, at the time of the American Revolutionary War it was really not practical for the Americans, British or French to produce flash guards.

As in the pictures above, you tend to see them mostly on Prussian and Austrian arms which were issue specific for those patterns.

So high end weapons did have them, most of these are private purchase arms.

My only point about them was they’ve been in existence for a very long time, they are not a modern innovation.

Do they provide safety for the rank and file… of course… not really a debatable issue, it’s just logical.

I personally always use one as it doens’t hinder shooting for me at all, i simply keep it on there so i don’t forget to put it back on.

 

[hawkeye2]

What Nick is showing are wind shields to assist in the loading preventing powder from blowing.

If they are indeed "wind shields" can we infer that windshield wipers existed too?