Flint comes loose in hammer

[Kirkschopped67]

I have a Jim Kibler long rifle. It has a Late Ketland lock from Sisters Company. The flint sets in the hammer with a piece of leather. When I tighten the top screw down, it will work it's way loose after about 7-8 shots. Is it common that the top screw comes loose? The gun only has around 100 shots though it. Would the leather already need to be changed? Once the flint seats in, it shoots well with no miss fires. When that flint gets loose, the flint moves and it will begin to miss fire. Is there a trick to keeping the flint tight in the hammer.

Kirk

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Do all flints come loose or just the one you are using now? If the flint has a high spot or domb it may pivot in the jaws. Perhaps a different flint? Did Jim cut teeth in the flint jaws? Although no lock manufacturer does this, I always cut teeth in the jaws to hold the leather wrap firmly. The teeth are raised with a chisel graver and are needle sharp. That is how most originals were made.

dave

 

[pargent]

Dave is spot on , it is my experience that all flints will work loose , sooner or later , just get into the habit of checking every few shots , fyi an ignition change is usually a flint coming loose .

 

[don hepler]

I am very particular, when it comes to picking flints. I carry a small homemade gage in my pocket, and only select flints, which are the same length and only ones that are parallel on top and bottom.

I also use only leather that is similar to an old baseball glove. I check the screw, but seldom do I ever have a flint come loose.

I tighten the screw, pretty tight, also.

Of course if you order flints, you're likely to get anything.

 

[tenngun]

Also some flints fit better upside down. Some flints work better with a lead wrap over leather. Then some times you get a flint with a high spot that just won't stay tight. When I go to prime I give the flint a little wiggle. When I'm trekking or hunting when ever I stop I check the lock. I have found big locks big rocks less trouble then small and dainty.

 

[Artificer]

Did Jim cut teeth in the flint jaws? Although no lock manufacturer does this, I always cut teeth in the jaws to hold the leather wrap firmly. The teeth are raised with a chisel graver and are needle sharp. That is how most originals were made.

dave

This is something I did not know until I got a copy of the following book and right on the cover one can see the teeth Dave mentions on the bottom side of the upper cock jaw. https://www.amazon.com/Identification-Illustrated-Britains-Famous-Musket/dp/1931464448

It was a good thing I had the book when a fellow member of the Major's Coy, the 42nd RHR offered to donate a Japanese Bess to the unit for a "loaner gun" if I could fix the musket. He had taken the musket apart a few years earlier due to some problems he had with it, lost some parts and didn't know how to replace the parts or fix the musket.

One of the missing parts was the top jaw for the cock as parts stopped being available for those guns quite some time ago. I thought about making one from steel stock, but a vendor had an earlier one that was cast and larger than the bottom jaw on the cock. (That was a good thing as I could shape the part to match the bottom jaw.) I noticed the teeth in the book that Dave mentioned, and not having an engraver, I used a special center punch I ground with a much sharper angle than most center punches, to punch the teeth.

Something else I noticed in the book was the hole in the Top Jaw Cock for the screw was not drilled perpendicular to the jaw. It is drilled at an angle so the front of the jaw contacts the leather or lead flint pad before the rear of the jaw. Though I had been using flintlocks for 30 years by the time, I never noticed that. :redface: I actually got the angle to drill the hole by using the photo's in the book.

After learning that, I annealed the top jaw on my Pedersoli Bess and punched the teeth, then case hardened it.

Something else I learned in the early 70's from an older Flintlock Shooter, was to "wet form" a leather jaw in the lock around each flint and that helps keep the flint in place better. After that, I wet formed leather around each flint and kept the leather pad with each flint, instead of keeping separate flints and leather pads. (Since you should grease the top jaws and screw when you wet form the leather pad, you may as well make a few at a time in between shoots or reenactments.) Then clean the grease off the lock when done.

Modern day reenactors blank fire their muskets MANY more times in a day than was originally done in the period and MUCH more than target shooters do in the same time. I put a fresh flint and wet formed pad in mine and got it properly adjusted before each reenactment. I then tightened it down securely. Even before I added the teeth to the top jaw, I would fire up to 30 or 40 shots in a reenactment and rarely needed to tighten the Top Jaw screw.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

When I tighten the top screw down, it will work it's way loose after about 7-8 shots. Is it common that the top screw comes loose?

How are you tightening the screw? What kind of leather are you using? How thick is the leather?

 

[hanshi]

I seldom have flints come loose but it does happen sometimes. Hump back flints are often difficult to make stay in the jaws. If your flints are not more or less flat topped, grind the hump down with a dremel. Use decently thick leather.

 

[Artificer]

I seldom have flints come loose but it does happen sometimes. Hump back flints are often difficult to make stay in the jaws. If your flints are not more or less flat topped, grind the hump down with a dremel. Use decently thick leather.

And as I'm sure you are aware, ensure you are wearing at least one of the inexpensive dust masks. Inhaled flint dust is very bad juju.

Gus

 

[FishDFly]

Try teflon tape on the screw, wrap clock wise, not PC/HC correct, neither is wearing a "wrist" watch.

Try thicker/soft leather, it grips better on the flint.

 

[LongrifleDoc]

I put a fresh flint and wet formed pad in mine and got it properly adjusted before each reenactment. I then tightened it down securely.

Artificer;
What do you mean by a "wet formed pad", and how do you do it?
Thanks,
Walt

 

[Artificer]

Hi Walt,

For example, in my Brown Bess, I use pads cut from whatever scrap 4-5 oz leather I have on hand. I do try different kinds of leather to see what works well for my own lock and the locks of other members of my old unit. I don't know if this is scientifically true, but it seems to me the thicker leather will cushion the shock more from the flint striking the steel (frizzen).

Next I use a LIGHT coat of good grease or oil on the cock, top jaw and screw that the leather pad will touch. The grease or oil should not be "wet" on the surface of the metal. After applying it, I wipe most of it off.

Then I cut the leather pads to shape. I dip one in water till the smooth edge looks wet, then gently squeeze out some excess water and wrap it around the flint and adjust it in the jaws. Then I let it sit for 30 minutes to an hour as the leather dries out. I have thought about using a hair dryer or heat gun set on a low setting, to dry it quicker, but haven't gotten around to doing that yet.

Once the leather is dry, I pull it and the flint together out of the jaws and repeat the process for at least three or four leather pad/flint combo's. I keep the flints and their wet formed leather pads to use together.

When I'm finished making these combinations, I wipe and oil the lock parts.

Gus

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Thank you, Artificer. Your knowledge and experience is always most appreciated.
Walt

 

[Artificer]

Oops, one thing I forgot was when one uses thicker leather pads, you some times to often have to use shorter flints. So you should ensure you have the right size leather and flints before doing this.

Since most of the members of my old reenactment unit were not "live round" shooters or who rarely shot live rounds, I found many of them did not know a lot of little things about getting their locks to fire most every time. (I had competed with my Brown Bess "Carbine" in the 70's at local shoots and at Friendship, though I was not good enough back then to even place most of the time at Friendship.) So for many of my fellow reenactors, I took their muskets and tuned the locks and tried different sizes of flints and leather pads to get the best sparks possible for them. (I still stock quite a good selection of different size flints for personal use and for urgent use for others. Not a huge number, but at least a half dozen of most sizes.)

Then I stapled a piece of the leather I used for each lock to an index card and wrote their name on it and the size flint that worked best in their musket. I carried those cards to reenactments/events and also some scrap leather in the sizes I used. Sure enough at almost every event, someone would forget what size flint they needed and most did not know about leather thickness or have scrap leather in the right sizes.

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

Oops, one thing I forgot was when one uses thicker leather pads, you some times to often have to use shorter flints. So you should ensure you have the right size leather and flints before doing this.

You can also cut a notch in the rear of the leather so it fits around the jaw screw. This way you can use full-length flints.

 

[Kirkschopped67]

Thanks guys....lot of ideas to check on. I will begin to check each flint, leather, and also I believe the screw may stay tighter with teflon.

Kirk

 

[Coot]

You can also cut a notch in the rear of the leather so it fits around the jaw screw. This way you can use full-length flints.

:thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I seldom have them work loose.

But I also flip every 20 shots or so and before I mount them I dress any humpy or twisted flints in a jig with a Mizzy wheel to grind them flat.

 

[Many Klatch]

I don't think it is possible to get the jaws tight enough on the flint using the screw driver slot. I bore a 1/8" +/- hole through the top of the screw. I make a tightening bar from an old Allen wrench. I find that if I tighten the screw as tight as I can with a screw driver, that I can get at least one more turn with my bar and sometimes two. I never have flints loosen.

 

[Vaino]

I too use heavier leather and cut a notch for the screw. Rec'd a lock from one of the better known lockmakers and before using it on a new build, tightened a flint and the threads stripped w/ hardly any force applied. Checked the tap drill size and it was way oversize. Sent it back and the cock was replaced.

The tapped hole in the cock should have at least 75% threads.

On all my flint hunting MLers, I filed a hex on the "thumb" part of the screw and use a hex socket to tighten. The hex socket is high temp silver soldered to an "L" shaped length of steel rod. The hex is barely discernible and the "wrench" is very small and is always in my hunting bag. Never had a flint loosen up.....Fred