Evaluating Used Navy Arms Sheriff .44 pocket - Keep or Send Back

[LeMat1856]

Hello,

yesterday i received a used navy arms 1861 .44 sheriff pocket model. the fit and finish are just fine with the exception of a few scratches, but i don't know enough about bp to judge the quality of the other parts.

after cleaning it by removing the wedge, cylinder, and barrel assembly i noticed that it would "over run" the nipple for the third or fourth chamber, ie, the cylinder didn't stop in alignment with the hammer and actually jam in that position - between chambers.

if, however,i slow down and slowly cock the hammer and dry fire (onto a cap that has the explosive material removed by water) it will register each chamber correctly for all six and only if i pull the hammer back too far (beyond the fully cocked "click") does this 'over-run' happen again.

another odd occurance is that when the hammer is in the full cocked position, i can rotate the cylinder past one or more nipples/chambers easily. is this normal ?

also, i noticed that the cylinder seems to rattle alot when the hammer is in the loading position (first click). is this normal ?

when the hammer is in the full cocked position, it only rattles when i move the pistol up and down (no rattle when moved side to side). is this normal ?

all i have done is clean and lube. while evaluating the pistol (i have 9 more days to look it over), i'm not allowed to 'live fire' it...? so, i don't even know what could happen at a range.

plus, without any papers or manuals, i don't know what the lead ball size should be nor the powder charge (the chambers are really deep and look like they could hold 35-40 grains easily. pretty heavy load for such a small pistol - 5" barrel, 10" overall, 6 chambers). and, i'm guessing #10 caps ?

the italian year mark is AL (1983). it has another mark with N A aside two crossed cannons and anchor inside a circle on the left, exterior side of the brass base pin assembley.

and there are two other stamps: a PN with 5 point star above and the third is a shield with two crossed rifles inside and a star above that.

i paid $150 but can return it for full refund within 10 days.

anyone and everyone post your comments and questions. i will check back a couple of times every day over the weekend and answer your posts as needed. i like it but don't want to buy a piece that is worn out and unsafe when i could get a brand new one for $180.

thanks,
~daniel~
ps. the seller is 'the gun works' out of springfield, oregon.

 

[biliff]

Sounds like there's something going on with the bolt and/or bolt spring. Either the spring is weak/broken and not pushing the bolt up into the notches or the bolt is rubbing somewhere and not coming up into the notch. The observation that you can turn the cylinder with the gun at full cock tells me the bolt is not rising correctly for whatever reason. Consequently the cylinder is not locking into place.

Have you taken the grip and frame off and pulled the works? If the bolt spring is broken, it will be obvious. Sometimes you just get some manure in there or the screw holding the spring in place is just loose.

 

[mazo kid]

I agree with Bill, the bolt is not functioning properly. That and maybe the hand is not adjusted right if the cylinder will rotate past the correct stop. Or is it just "coasting" past because of quick hammer operation?. Either one is an easy and inexpensive repair

 

[wetpowder]

It's just me but, I would sent it back and get the new one. :hmm:

 

[mazo kid]

Another thought..... maybe you have cap debris in the works? As you cock the hammer look at the area under the cylinder and see if the bolt rises up. It should, and that locks the cylinder in place. It's not uncommon for debris and fouling to build up in the "innards" of these guns.

 

[Zonie]

With the hammer down, very slowly bring it back towards full cock.

As you do this you should hear several distinct "clicks".

With the hammer down, the cylinder should be locked by the cylinder bolt. It won't rotate.

The first click will retract the cylinder "bolt" at the bottom of the cylinder which will free the cylinder so it can be rotated by hand.

The second click will release the cylinder bolt so that it snaps upward to reengage the notches in the outside of the cylinder.

On one of my guns this also locks the cylinder because the bolt is exactly in line with one of the notches but on another gun after the click sound of the bolt hitting the cylinder, the cylinder needs to turn just slightly more. When this slight turn of the cylinder by the hammer rotates the cylinder, another click sound is heard when the bolt snaps into the notch.
At this point, the cylinder is locked and cannot be turned.

Further retraction of the hammer produces one more click as the sear engages the full cock notch.

Based on the description, I'm betting the second click isn't happening because the cylinder bolt isn't snapping up to engage the cylinder.

If this is true, the spring that operates the trigger and the cylinder bolt isn't working correctly. Either it is broken or was bent by someone or the cylinder bolt is frozen up because of a lack of oil.

 

[LeMat1856]

Another thought..... maybe you have cap debris in the works? As you cock the hammer look at the area under the cylinder and see if the bolt rises up. It should, and that locks the cylinder in place. It's not uncommon for debris and fouling to build up in the "innards" of these guns.

DONE.
i watched closely during the two click process:
click 1 (loading position) the bolt drops down
click 2 (firing position) the bolt does rise up

i had accidently dripped too much synthetic oil on that part while inspecting and cleaning, but later returned and wiped off almost all of it.

there is just a touch on in now.

 

[Zonie]

What happened to the third click?

The third click should be the full cock firing position. If that is what your calling the second click then the second click I was referring to is missing.

That second (missing?) click is before the hammer reaches full cock. It is the sound of the cylinder bolt snapping upward against the outside of the cylinder.

 

[LeMat1856]

Sounds like there's something going on with the bolt and/or bolt spring. Either the spring is weak/broken and not pushing the bolt up into the notches or the bolt is rubbing somewhere and not coming up into the notch. The observation that you can turn the cylinder with the gun at full cock tells me the bolt is not rising correctly for whatever reason. Consequently the cylinder is not locking into place.

Have you taken the grip and frame off and pulled the works? If the bolt spring is broken, it will be obvious. Sometimes you just get some manure in there or the screw holding the spring in place is just loose.

BARE WITH ME:
i don't have the original schematics and am working from p63 of "the lyman black powder handbook" which actually shows a 1851 navy long barrel.. the pieces seem the same, i have been able to get the grips off*, and am coincerned that something is going to go "boing !" and fly out landing on the carpet and never found again.

so, is there anything that i should be aware of that is difficult to remove, requires pressure or force to reinstall, or special tools other than my little screwdrivers and plyers ?

i'll wait for your answer befoer going on to the "grip and frame group" and then "frame assembly" per this book.

if you have access to better diagrams or instructions, please note.

navy arms *actually* emailed me back and said they will snail-mail the original paperwork. they really are the best.

will check back later this evening @ 9pm pst.

thanks.. so far, so good.

~daniel~

*i cannot see into the piece very far.. seems a little dirty, but not excessive.. nothing broken, that i can see from grips.

 

[LeMat1856]

With the hammer down, very slowly bring it back towards full cock.

As you do this you should hear several distinct "clicks".

With the hammer down, the cylinder should be locked by the cylinder bolt. It won't rotate.

The first click will retract the cylinder "bolt" at the bottom of the cylinder which will free the cylinder so it can be rotated by hand.

The second click will release the cylinder bolt so that it snaps upward to reengage the notches in the outside of the cylinder.

On one of my guns this also locks the cylinder because the bolt is exactly in line with one of the notches but on another gun after the click sound of the bolt hitting the cylinder, the cylinder needs to turn just slightly more. When this slight turn of the cylinder by the hammer rotates the cylinder, another click sound is heard when the bolt snaps into the notch.
At this point, the cylinder is locked and cannot be turned.

Further retraction of the hammer produces one more click as the sear engages the full cock notch.

Based on the description, I'm betting the second click isn't happening because the cylinder bolt isn't snapping up to engage the cylinder.

If this is true, the spring that operates the trigger and the cylinder bolt isn't working correctly. Either it is broken or was bent by someone or the cylinder bolt is frozen up because of a lack of oil.

HERE GOES:

1) bringing hammer back - 1, faint 2, 3.. three clicks.. on #2 the cylinder rose up a little.

1) again - woooh, there was a broken sound, then click 1, faint 2, then 3.. so 4 clicks that time.

1) again - 1, 2.. that's all. no third click.. just two solid.

1) again - 1 solid, 2 is more like a thump, then 3 solid.

...moving on....

ok, i see what you mean... now if only i could see this, we would have the answer.

should i proceed with "grip assembly" and "frame assembly" stripdown routines ?

~daniel~

 

[LeMat1856]

What happened to the third click?

The third click should be the full cock firing position. If that is what your calling the second click then the second click I was referring to is missing.

That second (missing?) click is before the hammer reaches full cock. It is the sound of the cylinder bolt snapping upward against the outside of the cylinder.

sorry, on that test i just paid attention to the position of the bolt.

trying yet a fourth or fifth time, there is either a very faint or non-existant second click followed by the solid final/full cocked sound.

we're getting out of sequence.

Zonie, why don't you take over from here.
7:05pm (pst / oct 24)

~daniel~

 

[Zonie]

I think taking apart the gun is a good idea.
No, there are no hidden springs or other small parts that are going to fly out and get lost.

I would suggest that you try to keep the screws seperate though because some of them look almost like the others and the two screws on either side of the hammer need to go back into those two holes.

With the cylinder and barrel removed, I remove the two screws by the hammer and the one screw at the bottom of the grip. The grip and backstrap will then slide off of the frame.

With the hammer down, loosen the single screw that holds the mainspring in place. Do not take it out yet. Now, pushing down on the upper part of the spring, rotate it to the side so that it disengages from the roller on the bottom of the hammer. Now remove the screw and the spring.
Remove the three screws that hold the trigger guard to the frame and pull the trigger guard off.

At this point you should see the flat forked spring that works on the trigger and on the cylinder bolt lock. If it is broken you have found the problem.
This is removed by removing the single screw that holds it in place.

If you want to take the gun apart further,

Remove the three remaining screws in the left side of the frame, noting how the trigger and bolt stop are installed. After the screws are removed the trigger and bolt stop will almost fall out.

With the hammer screw removed you slide the hammer downward and out of the frame.
Notice that the "hand" is attached to the hammer and the little spring at the rear was pushing on the slot in the frame. This spring is notorious for breaking and if it does the hand will not rotate the cylinder.

Put it back together in the reverse order.
There are no special tricks you will need to know, everything is pretty simple. :grin:

Hope you noticed that I had things a little out of sequence. This is the fixed copy. :grin:

 

[madcratebuilder]

daniel
Read chapter 14 of your Bates and Cumpston book.

You may have a piece of cap mucking up the cam. A weak or broken lock spring could be the problem too. This is about the easiest pistol to learn how the lock works operate. Get the barrel, cylinder,grip frame off. that leaves the main frame with the hammer, trigger, bolt, bolt spring, arm, and four screws. If you think something is going to fly apart, work inside a clear plastic bag. I just lay everything out an a white towel. I'm sure you well see how the 'cam' (the little button on the side of the hammer)interacts with the lock bolt when the hammer is pulled back. again see chapter 14.
Good luck.

 

[mykeal]

You're getting great advice from Zonie, so I'll just let that proceed without getting into it. But, you had some other questions I'll try to answer:

i don't know what the lead ball size should be nor the powder charge (the chambers are really deep and look like they could hold 35-40 grains easily. pretty heavy load for such a small pistol - 5" barrel, 10" overall, 6 chambers). and, i'm guessing #10 caps ?

Start with a .454 round ball and 20 grains by volume of real black or substitute black powder; use either a lubed felt wad between the ball and the powder or a lube grease over the ball. Shoot a full cylinder at a short range using the same point of aim for all shots regardless of where they impact the target; the idea is to see what the group size is. Repeat the test with 25, 30 and, if the gun will hold it, 35 grains. The smallest group is the best load.

the italian year mark is AL (1983). it has another mark with N A aside two crossed cannons and anchor inside a circle on the left, exterior side of the brass base pin assembley.

Correct about the date of manufacture. The NA symbol is the importer's mark, Navy Arms Company. There should be a mark under the loading lever on the bottom of the barrel identifying the manufacturer. Some popular ones are FAP in a diamond shape for Pietta, a U inside what looks like a gun muzzle for Uberti, ASM for Armi San Marco or DGG for Armi San Paolo.

and there are two other stamps: a PN with 5 point star above and the third is a shield with two crossed rifles inside and a star above that.

These are the Italian proof house marks showing the gun was proof tested.

i paid $150 but can return it for full refund within 10 days.

i like it but don't want to buy a piece that is worn out and unsafe when i could get a brand new one for $180.

I'd keep it. The repair will not be difficult, and the price was reasonable for the type and age of the gun. You'll probably have close to $180 in it after the repairs are made, and it is a used gun, but you won't get as much quality for $180 in a new gun.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. 7:45p / 0ct 24


alright, zonie and madcrate-b, this is going to take a while, so it will 'look' like i'm still online, but actually i'm just still logged in.

i have to get my workspace prepared, tools ready, and a good stiff cup o' joe so i stay focused.

if i have problems, i'll post and check for replies but most of you are probably on the other side of the mountains (except madcrate in oregon) so i'll check back tomorrow as well.

i think i kinda like this.. since i can't do computers anymore, this might become my new hobby/career.....

any recommendation for an entry level 'smith book for *only* black powder (pistols, revolvers primarily; rifles maybe later (they're too long and heavy) would be appreciated.. i buy used books frequently.

here we go.....

~daniel~

 

[LeMat1856]

mykeal,

LeMat1856 Said:the italian year mark is AL (1983). it has another mark with N A aside two crossed cannons and anchor inside a circle on the left, exterior side of the brass base pin assembley.



Correct about the date of manufacture. The NA symbol is the importer's mark, Navy Arms Company. There should be a mark under the loading lever on the bottom of the barrel identifying the manufacturer. Some popular ones are FAP in a diamond shape for Pietta, a U inside what looks like a gun muzzle for Uberti, ASM for Armi San Marco or DGG for Armi San Paolo.


actually *under* the barrel, there are no marks.. on the left side is "black powder only .44 cal" and on the top side is "navy arms co ridgefield n.j." but on the bottom of the brass grip strap is 235086 and the diamond 'fap' symbol.

what do you think ?

and, only 20gr ? oh, i see, then increase to ... with the smallest group being the best load.. caps #10 ? they seem to fit ok. (dixie clearly reads #11 on both their .31 and this .44...?).

this is much more funner than gettin' a new one !

~daniel~

 

[LeMat1856]

.
.
. madcratebuilder, you have a pm response.

 

[Zonie]

And there, in the dimly lite room with but one small candle burning, the man bent over his bench to the task at hand.

Not a sound was made, just the heavy breathing of a man impatient to have a fully operating pistol at his command.

As he slowly laid aside the small screws and turned his attention once again to his gun, out of the corner of his eye he saw the screw fall off of the table into the blackness.

"manure!" :grin:

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. 22:15 / oct 24

ok, we're back live.

zonie, it looks like you are right. the bolt is not totally reaching up into the notches in the cylinder and we think that might be caused by some irregularity with in the bolt spring.

from what i could see, it is not sharply bent / angled as in the picture, rather, this one is almost flat thus probably not pushing the bolt up far enough to firmly engage the cylinder.

how does that sound ?

so, the question now is: buy a new spring, and hope that fixes everything, or chalk this one up to experience and go for the new one and be sure of getting a 100% functional item.

other observations: the wedge is badly deformed by the previous owner and cannot be removed by hand (try hammer); same for the wedge screw; while in the fully cocked position, the cylinder will rotate 360 degrees clockwise (only); when in the loading position, it will rotate 360 clockwise as normal plus a few milimeters fore and aft on the arbor; after the hammer is drawn back fully, the cylinder has a tendency to drift a little left or right of center (this would be just before pulling the trigger to fire a round); and probably more stuff i didn't even see while looking right at it due to my lack of experience.

i really wish i could be sure a simple spring would fix it, but with only 10 days to know for certain, it is doubtful.

do you agree ?

~daniel~

 

[Zonie]

Well, at this late hour I don't feel like disassembling any of my Colt revolvers so I can't say how much bend the spring should have.
It does sound like the spring is the problem though and they are relatively cheap to buy from Dixie.

When you say the wedge can't be removed by hand, this is normal. It should move with a few light taps on the right hand side to drift it out far enough to disengage it from the center pin and allow the barrel to be removed.

The little screw on the left is there to keep the wedge from coming out when it is disengaged from the cylinder pin. It also serves as a stop to prevent the wedge from being inserted too far during reassembly.

The cylinder will not rotate at all when the gun is fully cocked if the cylinder stop spring is pushing the cylinder stop up into engagement with the cylinder notches. Replacing the spring will fix that.

In the loading position the cylinder will only rotate in one direction because the "hand" is engaging the ratchet at the rear of the cylinder. This prevents rotation in one direction. That is normal.

I believe if the cylinder bolt was fully engaged you wouldn't be able to rotate the cylinder much more than a few thousandths of an inch when the gun was cocked so the "drifting" should not be an issue when the gun is "fixed".

The cylinder in all percussion Colts will move forward and aft a bit when the hammer is in the loading position.
The amount of movement is controlled with the depth of insertion of the barrel wedge.
Actually, if it is inserted so far that the cylinder cannot move forward and aft a little the gun will rapidly "freeze up" due to fouling.

When the cylinder bolt is working properly you won't notice much if any movement of the cylinder fore and aft when the hammer is fully cocked.

Should you send it back and replace it with a new gun? Well, if you do you will have a new gun with a new barrel wedge and cylinder stop pin.
If you keep this one it will cost you about $3.50 plus postage from Dixie Gunworks.
Dixie Gunworks TRIGGER & CYLINDER LOCK SPRING

By the way, look at that web site to see what a new spring looks like.

I can't say whether you should return the pistol or not. Only you can decide that but if it were mine, I figure the postage would cost as much as buying a new spring so I would probably go for the new spring. After all, a gun in the hand is worth two in the mail.