So the Pedersoli Indian trade rifle in 20 gauge jug choked modified might be exactly what I'm looking for and all in would still be less than $1500
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifl...trade-musket-rifle-20-ga-flintlock-s-282.html
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Does a 12 g BP shotgun exist that will shoot a pattern with no holes at 35 yards?
- Thread starter Sudsy
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So the Pedersoli Indian trade rifle in 20 gauge jug choked modified might be exactly what I'm looking for and all in would still be less than $1500
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifl...trade-musket-rifle-20-ga-flintlock-s-282.html
I belong to a trap/sporting clays/skeet club. I've seen multiple modern barrels with scoring from the fore-mentioned forcing cone all the way to and including the choke tube from non toxic shot.
Why jug choke it?
I can clean my .54 and .58 chrome lined hawkins barrels with 5 patches. It worth it
The chrome lining isn't necessary for "hardened" lead shot but if it's your criteria you are limited mostly to Pedersoli for a production smoothbore. You can put choke tubes in any barrel with ample muzzle thickness, even the chrome lined barrel(s). You will need to seek out a shotgunsmith that has a cutter for the chrome lined barrel(s) but there are plenty of them. How much shot do you want to use and how serious or competitive are you? I use a Pedersoli 20b (which uses 19b components) that has a Mod choke designation in the left barrel. With one to one and one sixteenth ounce of shot I can break trap targets just fine. I admit my score is just a little lower than a conventional shotgun, but not entirely due to shot/choke. The moderns are fitted a bit better, loads have slightly more consistent velocity and I do use one and one-eighth ounce loads. I'm talking 20/25 instead of 25/25. The 20 gauge is available in flintlock or percussion.
Now, with my Pedersoli 12b I have choke tubes. Forget what they say on them, I use the one that demonstrates the best pattern (on paper at 40-yards) and I use one and one-eighth ounce "hard" lead shot. I have "fit" that stock for my cast, drop and length using the 16-yard method. With this shotgun/choke selection and load I can shoot as well as my modern shotguns on trap and skeet (different chokes and loads for skeet).
If you're sticking to trap, a single barrel should serve you're need and keep the cost of choking down. Again, Pedersoli makes one in flintlock and percussion.
Nothing wrong with jug choking. It can produce the results you want. One draw-back is that you can't keep tweaking it. You can cut a jug choke and pattern. If it isn't what you want, you can cut again and pattern again. If you don't get what you want after the second cut you are going down-hill. Whatever you start with, you will still need to experiment with loads to get the pattern you want. The difference with a choke tube is that you can stick to one load and go through patterning with multiple choke constrictions. Then you can change the load if you're not satisfied and go through the tube selection again on the pattern board. There are just more combinations available changing loads and chokes than jug-choking and just changing loads.
You can try different "modern" wads that will effect your patterns. With more traditional loads you are depending on the charge/shot ratio and choke to produce the pattern. With the modern wad, you are adding another influencing variable that you can experiment with to make even more change to the pattern.
Here's an unrealistic and hard to replicate scenario just for demonstrative purposes. These are round numbers just for the example. Lets say your best trap gun has a .725 bore for 28 inches of barrel length and chokes to .700 for the last two inches. Your favorite modern ammo loaded at the factory gets X FPS at the muzzle. If you made a barrel with the same exact tube diameters at the same lengths, then took the wad and shot out of your modern cartridge and figured out how much BP to make it the exact same FPS at the muzzle - in theory you have created the same exact conditions for the wad full of shot and it should produce an almost identical pattern. Because this is far from probable, you have to compare the two patterns from the modern and ML differently. You have to shoot one pattern with the modern that you are satisfied with and then work to replicate that pattern from the ML changing one thing at a time until it happens. How it happens doesn't really matter. If the end result is a nearly identical pattern, either shotgun is providing you the external results you want.
For what you are doing, gun-fit and pattern are really important. You are not going to get the velocity or consistency (standard deviation) of premium modern ammunition from your ML. You can just about replicate the performance parameters of the classic Win AA Trap loads with your ML up to the 1200 FPS with the right components, so there is not disadvantage there. However the pattern from your ML will be greatly influenced by velocity and you may find the ML patterns best with a velocity 100-200 FPS less.
Now, with my Pedersoli 12b I have choke tubes. Forget what they say on them, I use the one that demonstrates the best pattern (on paper at 40-yards) and I use one and one-eighth ounce "hard" lead shot. I have "fit" that stock for my cast, drop and length using the 16-yard method. With this shotgun/choke selection and load I can shoot as well as my modern shotguns on trap and skeet (different chokes and loads for skeet).
If you're sticking to trap, a single barrel should serve you're need and keep the cost of choking down. Again, Pedersoli makes one in flintlock and percussion.
Nothing wrong with jug choking. It can produce the results you want. One draw-back is that you can't keep tweaking it. You can cut a jug choke and pattern. If it isn't what you want, you can cut again and pattern again. If you don't get what you want after the second cut you are going down-hill. Whatever you start with, you will still need to experiment with loads to get the pattern you want. The difference with a choke tube is that you can stick to one load and go through patterning with multiple choke constrictions. Then you can change the load if you're not satisfied and go through the tube selection again on the pattern board. There are just more combinations available changing loads and chokes than jug-choking and just changing loads.
You can try different "modern" wads that will effect your patterns. With more traditional loads you are depending on the charge/shot ratio and choke to produce the pattern. With the modern wad, you are adding another influencing variable that you can experiment with to make even more change to the pattern.
Here's an unrealistic and hard to replicate scenario just for demonstrative purposes. These are round numbers just for the example. Lets say your best trap gun has a .725 bore for 28 inches of barrel length and chokes to .700 for the last two inches. Your favorite modern ammo loaded at the factory gets X FPS at the muzzle. If you made a barrel with the same exact tube diameters at the same lengths, then took the wad and shot out of your modern cartridge and figured out how much BP to make it the exact same FPS at the muzzle - in theory you have created the same exact conditions for the wad full of shot and it should produce an almost identical pattern. Because this is far from probable, you have to compare the two patterns from the modern and ML differently. You have to shoot one pattern with the modern that you are satisfied with and then work to replicate that pattern from the ML changing one thing at a time until it happens. How it happens doesn't really matter. If the end result is a nearly identical pattern, either shotgun is providing you the external results you want.
For what you are doing, gun-fit and pattern are really important. You are not going to get the velocity or consistency (standard deviation) of premium modern ammunition from your ML. You can just about replicate the performance parameters of the classic Win AA Trap loads with your ML up to the 1200 FPS with the right components, so there is not disadvantage there. However the pattern from your ML will be greatly influenced by velocity and you may find the ML patterns best with a velocity 100-200 FPS less.
- Light Target Load: 1145 fps
- Heavy Target Load: 1165 fps
- Xtra-Lite Target Load: 1180 fps
- Heavy Target Load: 1200 fps
- Super-Handicap Heavy Target Load: 1250 fps
- Lite Handicap Target Load: 1290 fps
Don't dismiss cylinder bore. Any choke deforms lead pellets, deformed pellets degrade patterns. More shot, hardened lead, fewer deformed pellets, equal better patterns. And a clay bird just has to break. I do most of my birding (upland) with a (unmentionable) riot gun. so this area of ML is not my forte, but SDSmif's target and the Skychief load seem to be good indicators of the possibilities. Just my thoughts.
Richard/Grumpa
Richard/Grumpa
Hello Sudsy -- I use to belong to Central Jersey Gun Club and Citizens Rifle & Revolver Club when I lived in NJ (moved in 1998). They were both great clubs and have a lot to offer and a great bunch of people too boot. There were only two of us shooting BP SXS shotguns at the time and we had the range all to ourselves. It will be almost impossible to find modern and BP shotgun trap or skeet shooters shooting on the same range at the same time.
For trap with a BP shotgun at the distance you will be shooting from the 16 yard line you may get away with a 12 gauge with choke but if you are shooting any handicap targets then I would go with a 10 gauge. Shooting skeet with a 12 gauge is fine. I hear those people who are saying a 20 gauge is fine but you have to be a AA shooter to compete with it. I will shoot a modern 20 gauge for fun on the trap range but when it comes to shooting ATA registered targets give me my Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade shooting the improved modified barrel at the 16 yard line every time and I will score 97+ all day long
.No it would not. I own that same trade musket. It's the 19 gauge with the 36" barrel I referenced. And yes most are 19 as opposed to a true 20 gauge. The best bang for your buck in a single barrel ml shotgun for your target shooting needs would be this-
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...ct_name/PS3395+GIBBS+12+GA+PERCUSSION+SHOTGUN
That gun is built for the task at hand.
edit- I should I add that the smoothbore you referenced is a fine gun. I love mine. But it's more for hunting/woods walking/ball shooting/etc.
Personally I think the OP wants a muzzleloader to match a breachloader! Forget it, it doesn't work just like that.
It is more primitive than contemporary shotguns and any simulated hunting target shooting or trap shooting should be doable if you can learn to shoot a muzzloader that a; fits you and b; prints a pattern where you look. If they check out you have only got to figure out the lead (leed) because no way will get velocities you get from cartridges and a nice pattern!
If I was the op I would just try and enjoy myself otherwise I think you will be disappointed!
It is more primitive than contemporary shotguns and any simulated hunting target shooting or trap shooting should be doable if you can learn to shoot a muzzloader that a; fits you and b; prints a pattern where you look. If they check out you have only got to figure out the lead (leed) because no way will get velocities you get from cartridges and a nice pattern!
If I was the op I would just try and enjoy myself otherwise I think you will be disappointed!
megasupermagnum
45 Cal.
I think he has a worthy goal. He wants to have fun with a muzzleloader shooting trap. I'm fairly sure he has no intentions of being competitive against a Perazzi. He asked a rather open ended question with no real answer, but if th goal is to break a clay target at 40+ yards, a jug choke is a good way to do it. I never said to dismiss a cylinder bore either, but a jug choke will allow you to shoot lighter loads and still get effective patterns. I would not buy that Pedersoli. I've owned one Pedersoli, and the more I handle various models, the more I dislike Pedersoli. They make a well put together gun, but their designs are not my cup of tea. I just looked up the latest status of the Kibler fowler. It looks like he is actually going with a higher end trade gun, which would be a good choice. I think that means it will be in a smaller gauge though, probably 20, maybe 16 gauge. I definitely think a fowler or trade gun is what you want for a sub $1000 muzzleloading flintlock. If you are willing to try caplock, there are a decent number of original SXS's that go on sale online. I watched gunbroker for about a year before I found mine for $700. You have to be very careful doing this, and it is still kind of a crapshoot buying without seeing it in person.
The thing to keep in mind, and I mentioned this somewhat earlier, is that a muzzleloader and breech loader don't pattern the same, and it is in the muzzleloaders favor. I used to really chase the long range turkey game. I played with all kinds of combo's in tricked out modern shotguns, with a handful of the highest dollar turkey choke tubes. Through reloading, I was able to beat factory ammo of the time, but not by that far. All in all, my best load was with #5 shot, buffered, and with whatever the choke was (I think a Patternmaster), it put enough pellets on target to 50 yards.
Now when I first came to muzzleloaders, it was a modern muzzleloader, not traditional at all. it has a jug choke, but a screw on jug choke, and it constricts extra full. The patterns from that gun are amazing. Right out of the gate with the first load I tried I was on par with factory 12 gauge ammo, even without buffer! I tried a few loads, picked a good one, and hunted with that for years. It wasn't until later that I discovered the gun could do even better.
When I first started playing with a cylinder bore SXS muzzleloader, I was a bit disappointed, but it did better than the OP is afraid of. I was trying to make it a turkey gun. In the end, I did succeed, but it takes some work. For a wingshooting gun, a cylinder bore can get you quite a ways, and can be comparable to a modern shotgun with a modified choke. Now I'm shooting a SXS with fixed improved cylinder chokes. I was a bit confused what such a mild choke would do. I was very surprised at how tight they pattern. Honestly I'm not sure a person could need more than this.
Based on my experiences, in places I would choose a modern breech loader with a full choke, a muzzleloader with modified choke will perform as well. If I were to ever build a SXS, I would give a strong thought to a cylinder right barrel, and IC left barrel, and and that should compare quite well to a modern IC/MOD SXS.
The thing to keep in mind, and I mentioned this somewhat earlier, is that a muzzleloader and breech loader don't pattern the same, and it is in the muzzleloaders favor. I used to really chase the long range turkey game. I played with all kinds of combo's in tricked out modern shotguns, with a handful of the highest dollar turkey choke tubes. Through reloading, I was able to beat factory ammo of the time, but not by that far. All in all, my best load was with #5 shot, buffered, and with whatever the choke was (I think a Patternmaster), it put enough pellets on target to 50 yards.
Now when I first came to muzzleloaders, it was a modern muzzleloader, not traditional at all. it has a jug choke, but a screw on jug choke, and it constricts extra full. The patterns from that gun are amazing. Right out of the gate with the first load I tried I was on par with factory 12 gauge ammo, even without buffer! I tried a few loads, picked a good one, and hunted with that for years. It wasn't until later that I discovered the gun could do even better.
When I first started playing with a cylinder bore SXS muzzleloader, I was a bit disappointed, but it did better than the OP is afraid of. I was trying to make it a turkey gun. In the end, I did succeed, but it takes some work. For a wingshooting gun, a cylinder bore can get you quite a ways, and can be comparable to a modern shotgun with a modified choke. Now I'm shooting a SXS with fixed improved cylinder chokes. I was a bit confused what such a mild choke would do. I was very surprised at how tight they pattern. Honestly I'm not sure a person could need more than this.
Based on my experiences, in places I would choose a modern breech loader with a full choke, a muzzleloader with modified choke will perform as well. If I were to ever build a SXS, I would give a strong thought to a cylinder right barrel, and IC left barrel, and and that should compare quite well to a modern IC/MOD SXS.
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Great post, exactly right, it's to screw around with and have fun, not replace my Citori on the trap line.
Thank you !
At the moment I'm most leaning towards the Pedersoli percussion SxS with the cylinder and modified barrels. I get the option of shooting skeet and trap with the same gun.
Thank you !
At the moment I'm most leaning towards the Pedersoli percussion SxS with the cylinder and modified barrels. I get the option of shooting skeet and trap with the same gun.
Telling about an experience with unmentionables because it will illustrate something pertinent that I learned.
I walked by the skeet and trap ranges after some rifle practice. There were 20+/- guys in their 70's, all with unmentionable Model 12's. Each gun bore glued on wood pieces and blotches of moleskin over foam. I watched a bit, because nobody E V E R missed!
Several noted my interest and invited me over. A guy roughly my dimensions lent me his gun. Mounting it felt really good. They were shooting light reloads from 2.5 inch cartridges. I won't claim I never missed, but I shot better than I ever had before.
What did I learn? The over arching importance of gun fit. And that just because you can buy 3 inch or larger cartridges does not mean you need them for everything. Not every target is a goose at 45 yards. I am soon going to try a ML double.
My first concern will be gun fit. After that, I will start with LIGHT loads and, as necessary, work up to the minimum load that will do the job.
I walked by the skeet and trap ranges after some rifle practice. There were 20+/- guys in their 70's, all with unmentionable Model 12's. Each gun bore glued on wood pieces and blotches of moleskin over foam. I watched a bit, because nobody E V E R missed!
Several noted my interest and invited me over. A guy roughly my dimensions lent me his gun. Mounting it felt really good. They were shooting light reloads from 2.5 inch cartridges. I won't claim I never missed, but I shot better than I ever had before.
What did I learn? The over arching importance of gun fit. And that just because you can buy 3 inch or larger cartridges does not mean you need them for everything. Not every target is a goose at 45 yards. I am soon going to try a ML double.
My first concern will be gun fit. After that, I will start with LIGHT loads and, as necessary, work up to the minimum load that will do the job.
What is the opinion on this one ? (not familiar with the brand)
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index.../product_name/PS0930+DGW+MAGNUM+SHOTGUN,+12GA
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index.../product_name/PS0930+DGW+MAGNUM+SHOTGUN,+12GA
Well for one it's not available. And given the virus nonsense going on worldwide especially in Europe (Italy was really hard hit), it may be a loooooong time before its available again. It's a private label Pedersoli made for Dixie.
I'm not expecting to get anything brand new
I'll be watching for something used in great condition to pop up
It's a toy to play with so I can be very patient
I'll be watching for something used in great condition to pop up
It's a toy to play with so I can be very patient
I was over at my club tonight. No problem breaking birds 10 yards from the trap, but couldnt connect from the 16 yard line. I dont think I was running out of pattern, but the pitch has the barrels angling up, having be shooting over the birds. I'll be looking for a spacer to lower the pitch and hopefully try again next week.
I picked up one of these a while ago and am very happy with it.
I needed to pick up about 1/4" on one of my shotguns and just the cover without any spacers is perfect
I have a 22 with a very low comb and the small spacer is perfect on that gun
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303725576619
How about the Pedersoli 10g double. They are a little heavy but as far as I know all are choked, some are multi choked.
I have not tested mine yet with light loads but I've a feeling it will be ok. Besides, with all that shot you have just dump what ever is needed.
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Pedersoli made a "Trap Special" 12 gauge that was choked somewhere around modified and full. Richard Beauchamp of Flintlocksetc.com used to have some, but I don't know about now. In his day, Richard was an elite flintlock trap shooter (with close ties to Pedersoli).
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