Did I overpay for this Colt Signature Series?

[brushblind]

The only arrangement that Lou Imperato had with Colt for the 3rd gen pistols was a license to put Colts name on the barrel and frame.

I think their was some standards that were part of the deal. Colt wouldn't agree to use of the Colt name otherwise and of course they were marketed and sold as the genuine deal in the Colt silver box.

 

[Dude]

Truth be told from what I've heard, even the original Colts were often produced elsewhere. The big question is whether they were produced to Colts standards.

And the serial numbers were stamped that way because that's how the originals were stamped. Maybe it was to keep everything together since they were hand fitted. After bluing and everything else, the parts could be identified as to which build they were to.

Just because you guys say they're no better than a Pietta or Uberti, doesn't negate the fact they do sell for more. They sell for about what wiscoaster paid - so the answer is "no, you didn't overpay".

 

[Bad Karma]

YUP Pietta/Uberti Made Colt assembled really not worth more than a Pietta 1860. Signature Series does not add over $30 to the original value.

This is from Dennis Alder's book.

"A little over a decade passed between the end of the 2nd and beginning of the 3rd Generation Colt percussion revolver lineup. “It needed the time, the market needed to be cleansed, and after 11 years passed, my son Anthony and I decided to bring them back one more time,” explains Imperato. They organized the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company in Brooklyn, New York in 1993. A year later, the 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder Signature Series was introduced under a licensing agreement with Colt’s Manufacturing Company, Inc. Under this new “licensing” arrangement, Imperato not only manufactured the 3rd Generation black powder revolvers, he was also responsible for quality control, final inspection, marketing, advertising, sales, distribution and shipping to distributors or customers. This “licensing” arrangement was significantly different from the “subcontractor” type agreement he had with Colt’s for the production of the 2nd Generation percussion revolvers.
Under the old “subcontractor” agreement to produce 2nd Generation percussion models, Imperato’s only responsibilities were to manufacture the revolvers to Colt’s strict specifications and then ship the finished product to Colt’s facilities in Hartford. Colt’s then performed final inspection and shipped the revolvers to their distributors. This is why Colt historical letters for 2nd Generation percussion revolvers contain exactly the same type of information one finds in letters for original percussion models, Single Action Armys and other firearms that Colt’s produced. Historical letters for 3rd Generation percussion revolvers that contain any kind of detailed information are rare. If a letter can be secured at all, they typically omit most of the details one finds in other Colt historical letters because these revolvers never passed through their facilities where production and shipping information was painstakingly recorded. The first 3rd Generation model offered was the traditional 1851 Navy, followed by the 1847 Walker, 1860 Army, and 1849 Pocket, the one gun that had been omitted from the 2nd Generation line. With these first guns a new tradition was established. More than a reissue of the models offered from 1971 to 1982, each was embellished along the backstrap with the flamboyant signature of Sam Colt. On steel frame guns the signature was inlaid in gold, and engraved on silver-plated and polished brass backstraps. The Colt signature added a new sense of heritage to the guns, as well as a distinguishing characteristic from the 2nd Generation Colts. By 1996, Lou and Anthony Imperato had recreated all of the original models, as well as adding two new historic Colts to the line that were not offered in the 2nd Generation, the aforementioned 1849 Pocket Dragoon, literally a scaled down First Model Dragoon chambered in .31 caliber, and the 1862 Trapper, a pocket-sized .36 caliber revolver of which Colt only produced 50 original examples in 1862. A variation of the 1862 Pocket Police, the Trapper was fitted with a short 3-1/2 inch round bar-rel without loading lever and accompanied by a brass ramrod measuring 4-5/8 inches and designed to fit through the loading lever channel in place of the plunger.
The 3rd Generation Colts have become landmark models, expanding the variety of guns available to the collector and shooter. Within three years of their introduction, there were more than a dozen Signature Series Colts on the market, covering every caliber, size, and model produced in Hartford, including the transitional Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon, originally built in 1848. This was the first model assembled in Colt’s new Hartford, Connecticut, plant, and only 240 were made before the First Model Dragoon went into production."

Lou Imperato continued to do as he did with the 2nd gen Colts. That is to import raw barrel, cylinders and in some cases the back straps from Uberti. The remainder of parts came from in-house or other USA venders.

For anyone interested in more info on the 3rd gen Colts, read this.
http://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf
Back to the OP question of "Who Has the Best Repro BP Revolvers?"

The new production Italian replicas are generally good revolvers. They well some times need some fine tuning. The 2nd and 3rd gen Colts are superior in fit and finish, small parts are of much better quality. Like any manufacturer, there are a few that made it past QC that may need some minor work.

 

[Gun Tramp]

Truth be told from what I've heard, even the original Colts were often produced elsewhere.

Not really. Please see "A History of the Colt Revolver...from 1836 to 1940" by Haven and Belden, 1940.

 

[Hawk54]

I think their was some standards that were part of the deal. Colt wouldn't agree to use of the Colt name otherwise and of course they were marketed and sold as the genuine deal in the Colt silver box.

Colt sold the rights to use their name for money. That's it. The use of Colt's name went along on the boxes as well as the pistols. Colt doesn't recognize 3rd gen revolvers as Colts. That tells you all you need to know.

 

[Wes]

No offense taken but 3rd Gen. Signature perc. revolvers were made in Italy by Uberti for Lou Imperato under his arrangement with Colt. They are excellent repro.'s and are a little more polished than the American made 2nd Gen.'s. The 2nd Gen.s did have 3 or 4 ruff Italian forgings that were finished and then assembled and completed with US parts here in the US. I believe some people get info for the Colt Single Action Army 2nd and 3rd Gen.'s confused. Mike Bellevue has a good bit of info on the differences between the Colt models on YouTube.

Glad I didn’t offend you, last thing I want is to get anyone crosswise with me on this forum as there are a great buch of guys that hang out here. I do have a question though, the S.T.s article says the 3rd. Generation Colt parts were made in Italy but final finishing and assembly were done here by Colt. Is that incorrect? I would think with as wide a circulation as S.T.s has a mistake would have been caught and corrected.
As a complete aside the finest percussion revolver I own is anything but authentic, one I bought many years ago, it’s a Pietta 1851 Colt pattern with a nickel-silver backstrap but chambered in 44 cal. Not authentic at all, but I think the 1851 is the prettiest of them all and I wanted a 44. That revolver is smooth as glass, timing is perfect, distinct clicks as the action is cocked, and is a joy in the hand. If I had it to do over again I’d choose it in 36 cal., but that is one fine made revolver.

 

[Hawk54]

Glad I didn’t offend you, last thing I want is to get anyone crosswise with me on this forum as there are a great buch of guys that hang out here. I do have a question though, the S.T.s article says the 3rd. Generation Colt parts were made in Italy but final finishing and assembly were done here by Colt. Is that incorrect? I would think with as wide a circulation as S.T.s has a mistake would have been caught and corrected.
As a complete aside the finest percussion revolver I own is anything but authentic, one I bought many years ago, it’s a Pietta 1851 Colt pattern with a nickel-silver backstrap but chambered in 44 cal. Not authentic at all, but I think the 1851 is the prettiest of them all and I wanted a 44. That revolver is smooth as glass, timing is perfect, distinct clicks as the action is cocked, and is a joy in the hand. If I had it to do over again I’d choose it in 36 cal., but that is one fine made revolver.

3rd gen Colt parts were not done by Colt. Colt had nothing to do with them other than licensing the use of the Colt name. The 3rd gen pistols were made in Lou Imperato's Iver Johnson plant. Iver Johnson was responsible for procurement of parts, quality control, final inspection, marketing, sales, distribution, etc.

 

[Bad Karma]

ST seems to have conflated the second and third generation revolvers. Or parts of the production process…

 

[SPQR70AD]

People forget that the 3rd gen Colt’s came into being almost 30 years ago. What price wise today is the same as it was almost three decades ago.

my pay

 

[wiscoaster]

.... Your cap 'n ball axiom makes no sense. ....

It's at least 51% humor, sorry you didn't get it.

The necessity of repetitive disassemble / reassemble is because the idea is to do as little as possible, reassemble and see if it made any difference, then if not, to disassemble and do a little more, careful to only smooth and polish, not to alter shape. There's no willy-nilly and nonmethodical filing of parts where there's no knowledge of what that part does and how it interacts with other parts.

 

[wiscoaster]

....,I've always understood and with all new firearms I've bought (new of used) that I give the firearm a good cleaning to get rid of any oils/contamination that may be in the bore (cylinders if revolver), give a light oiling to needed parts, and then if the action and parts are functioning as designed fire a number of rounds through it to break it in and see if there are any bumps in the road so to speak...

I do the same. But with my emphasis added to the quote.

.... By stripping it down completely (3 times?) and filing on parts you have no idea if that was needed or not, have no idea how the revolver functioned, what it may have needed,....,

No, that's not quite accurate, because I have my previous experience from at least four other similar firearms, and furthermore just from running the action dry it's already leaving traces of where it's rubbing, plus I've discovered from experience that I have a natural feel for recognizing excess friction, and with my previous experience or those similar makes and models some pretty good idea of where it's coming from. And filing?!? That's pretty aggressive. The trigger guard slot isn't an action part. Normally my process just involve polishing. In this case some sanding where there was some light corrosion and surface roughness on parts that were supposed to be smooth. You have to account for this pistol of having sat for maybe as long as 30 years without any care. It wasn't ready to be shot, as I explained in a previous post. I don't consider it "factory new" if it's been sitting that long. It gets treated as used.

With only a couple exceptions, every one of my firearm aquisitions, some 150+, new and used, has been completely disassembled and reassembled, and if used, always before first shots. That's experience you're discounting.

My success with my process is proof of my madness.

The pistol will again be completely disassembled after it gets shot to look for further new traces of where it needs polishing.

 

[Bad Karma]

I do the same. But with my emphasis added to the quote.


No, that's not quite accurate, because I have my previous experience from at least four other similar firearms, and furthermore just from running the action dry it's already leaving traces of where it's rubbing, plus I've discovered from experience that I have a natural feel for recognizing excess friction, and with my previous experience or those similar makes and models some pretty good idea of where it's coming from. And filing?!? That's pretty aggressive. Normally it just involves polishing. In this case some sanding where there was some light corrosion and surface roughness on parts that were supposed to be smooth. You have to account for this pistol of having sat for maybe as long as 30 years without any care. It wasn't ready to be shot, as I explained in a previous post.

With only a couple exceptions, every one of my firearm aquisitions, some 150+, new and used, has been completely disassembled and reassembled before first shots. That's experience you're discounting.

My success with my process is proof of my madness.

The pistol will again be completely disassembled after it gets shot to look for further new traces of where it needs polishing.

FILING?? Have ye never heard of a Dremel laddie?!

 

[wiscoaster]

....I recall your Kibler SMR and the wreak that was....

It was the LOG that was the wreck. The rifle is fine. I'm hoping to take it out again today or tomorrow to see how the new rear sight works out. (If the usual crowd of onlookers that come over to admire it leave me alone for long enough.)

 

[Maven]

As Flehto wrote here some time ago, "A Dremel will get you into trouble faster than it will get you out." Maven, sometimes known as Angus on Islay, laddie.

 

[brushblind]

Glad I didn’t offend you, last thing I want is to get anyone crosswise with me on this forum as there are a great buch of guys that hang out here. I do have a question though, the S.T.s article says the 3rd. Generation Colt parts were made in Italy but final finishing and assembly were done here by Colt. Is that incorrect? I would think with as wide a circulation as S.T.s has a mistake would have been caught and corrected.
As a complete aside the finest percussion revolver I own is anything but authentic, one I bought many years ago, it’s a Pietta 1851 Colt pattern with a nickel-silver backstrap but chambered in 44 cal. Not authentic at all, but I think the 1851 is the prettiest of them all and I wanted a 44. That revolver is smooth as glass, timing is perfect, distinct clicks as the action is cocked, and is a joy in the hand. If I had it to do over again I’d choose it in 36 cal., but that is one fine made revolver.

I think it's incorrect, they were built by Uberti to Lou Imperato's likings. The fit and finish was excellent!

 

[Hawk54]

I think it's incorrect, they were built by Uberti to Lou Imperato's likings. The fit and finish was excellent!

Not true. When Imperato came up with the idea of 3rd gen pistols he had Uberti make some complete pistols in Italy with the Colt stampings but they had Uberti markings on the underside of the barrel. Colt said not happening. Not part of the licensing agreement. So those pistols were stopped. Imperato then had Uberti ship raw parts to Imperato's Iver Johnson plant were they were fit, finished, marketed, distributed, and sold. The 3rd gen pistols as we know them were built and finished from Italian parts in the Iver Johnson plant in the US.

 

[Wes]

Not true. When Imperato came up with the idea of 3rd gen pistols he had Uberti make some complete pistols in Italy with the Colt stampings but they had Uberti markings on the underside of the barrel. Colt said not happening. Not part of the licensing agreement. So those pistols were stopped. Imperato then had Uberti ship raw parts to Imperato's Iver Johnson plant were they were fit, finished, marketed, distributed, and sold. The 3rd gen pistols as we know them were built and finished from Italian parts in the Iver Johnson plant in the US.

Thank you, thats what I thought too. Colt would not have had their name on revolvers made in Italy with Italian markings.

 

[fireman1]

gen 2 and Gen 3 frames were made here. Otherwise they would have had Italian proofs on them.

 

[Hawk54]

gen 2 and Gen 3 frames were made here. Otherwise they would have had Italian proofs on them.

Not true. Here is an excerpt from a CapandBall.com article about 3rd gen parts.

Under this “licensing” agreement, Imperato at his Iver Johnson factory where the 2nd Generation "F" Series were produced, was responsible for procurement of all parts, which came from Uberti and Armi San Marco, as we have found out, in Italy. Iver Johnson was also responsible for quality control, final inspection, marketing, advertising, sales and distribution of the revolvers.

Colt 2nd gen frames were made in the Colt factory by Colt. Colt had nothing to do with the 3rd gen revolvers so Imperato/Iver Johnson got the rough cast frames from Italy. Completed Italian revolvers require proof testing and are so marked on the barrel and frame. Rough cast parts still requiring machining and fitting do not. Colt and Iver Johnson would have had to make their own barrels if the cast parts they got imported from Italy required proofs.

 

[brushblind]

Not true. When Imperato came up with the idea of 3rd gen pistols he had Uberti make some complete pistols in Italy with the Colt stampings but they had Uberti markings on the underside of the barrel. Colt said not happening. Not part of the licensing agreement. So those pistols were stopped. Imperato then had Uberti ship raw parts to Imperato's Iver Johnson plant were they were fit, finished, marketed, distributed, and sold. The 3rd gen pistols as we know them were built and finished from Italian parts in the Iver Johnson plant in the US.

Kinda contradicts what you stated in post #85!