Compare Different Black Powder Substitutes

[LFC]

I'm new enough to the black-powder-substitute world that I've got basically no clue what they all are like, or even what's out there. I've used Pyrodex before, but that's it.

Can anyone tell me what the major brands/kinds are out there, and what the pros, cons, strengths, and weaknesses of each of them are? You know, something like "Jan Schlockey's Gold Plate powder; half the price of black powder, more corrosive, ignites at 7,500 degrees Celsius, produces higher pressures, same volume as black powder produces same results as black powder, turns into useless dust 8 days after you open the can"--that kind of thing. Can anyone clue me in as to the major players in the BP-substitute market, and what they're like? Thanks!

 

[roundball]

I'm new enough to the black-powder-substitute world that I've got basically no clue what they all are like, or even what's out there. I've used Pyrodex before, but that's it.

Can anyone tell me what the major brands/kinds are out there, and what the pros, cons, strengths, and weaknesses of each of them are? You know, something like "Jan Schlockey's Gold Plate powder; half the price of black powder, more corrosive, ignites at 7,500 degrees Celsius, produces higher pressures, same volume as black powder produces same results as black powder, turns into useless dust 8 days after you open the can"--that kind of thing. Can anyone clue me in as to the major players in the BP-substitute market, and what they're like? Thanks!

Comus, I'm afraid that's a question better suited for a website that deals with modern rifles and substitute powders :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is an article in this month's American Rifleman that pretty well covers all the information you want, except cost. In fact, its pretty weak on noting any negatives. I don't think they wanted to anger a possible advertiser. If you want the negatives, first read that article, and then ask about a particular powder here.

You are not going to go wrong using real Black Powder in any ML gun. Stick with the traditional ML rifles and shotguns, and you won't have many problems you can't fix yourself. Its when you try to use a substitute powder that really is not a substitute that you will get in trouble.

So far, the one " lie " I see repeated often about the subs, is that they don't take on water. Actually, they absorb moisture from the air because they are based on chemical compounds, like Ascorbic Acid, which actually take on moisture faster than does Black Powder residue! The other lie is that the subs don't require cleaning, or are " Cleaner-burning". They require just as much and sometimes more cleaning than does black powder. And, of course, no one likes to talk about the prices for the stuff. Or the fact that some of the newer ones deteriorate when stored, and have a short shelf life. Pyrodex seems to be the most stable of the bunch, and its also been around the longest. But, don't use it in a flintlock. And the other subs need a booster charge of BP to be fired in a flintlock. Some are trying to say that pinnacle can be used to both prime, and charge a flintlock, but this is not the case from the reports I have read.

When I am at friendship, or a large rendezvous, I look for these other powders on the small chance that a weak moment will get me to buy a can or bottle to try out. Most of the subs come and go before I ever see them for sale. That should speak volumes to you, even if you are new to the field.

 

[Claude Mathis]

"Black Powder - Friends don't let friends use substitutes." :wink:

 

[jtmattison]

You know, something like "Jan Schlockey's Gold Plate powder; half the price of black powder(three times the price), more corrosive, ignites at 7,500 degrees Celsius, produces higher pressures, same volume as black powder produces same results as black powder(not always), turns into useless dust 8 days after you open the can"--that kind of thing. Can anyone clue me in as to the major players in the BP-substitute market, and what they're like? Thanks!

I think you just about ansewered your own question.

You know what they say..."there's nothing like the real thing".

HD

 

[LFC]

I know--BP is the best, they say. Thing is, I'm interested in doing some diversifying (or at least learning enough to be able to do it), if and as BP becomes scarce or hard or impossible to get. Right now there is exactly one (1) place in my county where one can regularly buy real BP--but lots of places that sell all kinds of substitutes. If that one place that sells it goes out of business, or raises prices unconscionably, or blows up, or whatever, I'd love as many options as possible for avoiding turning a good gun into a mere decoration; hence the interest in knowing what's out there, what's good, bad, and ugly about it. (Yeah, I know there's mail order, but I could see that becoming harder to do in 10 years, too--and there usually seems to be a $25 special-handling fee for the mail orders, which is a drag and a half.)

 

[Wes/Tex]

Paul, that's a great coverage of synthetics. The only thing I'd like to add was that if not cleaned out thoroughly, the synthetic powders will cause chloride pitting in the guns bore. They never mention this when praising their products.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thanks, Wes, for adding that. Just what BP gun barrels need-- a little Hydrochloric acid. ( The chloride combines easily with water in the air to form this acid.) I had forgotten that bit of truth. I really have made too much of an effort to avoid these fraudulently sold substitutes, just because the promoters, including this guy who wrote the article in the American Rifleman, are shameless pushers of these products without honestly calling a spade a spade. Of course, if this were to appear under their Technical column, it would have the negatives listed as well. At least the Editors of the AR have not sold out that particular section in the magaizine. They just don't submit these kinds of products to the technical writers for their evaluations. Instead, they print a big fluff sales pitch piece, like the one we saw on these subs. Shame on the editor. He's a nice guy,BTW, but I don't think he knows much of anything about BP. If he did, he would be embarrassed right now.

 

[Darkgael]

Comus: "BP becomes scarce or hard or impossible to get. Right now there is exactly one (1) place in my county where one can regularly buy real BP."
I agree. Availability is an issue. It used to be that I could go to any one of four or five firearms dealers in my part of PA and turn up some BP. NONE of them sell it now.
I know, I know that it can be ordered through the mail. The issue there, for me at least, is that someone has to be home to receive the stuff. I am usually not home and my limited number of neighbors are not either. I have to wait for a time when I have a few days to be around.
That's why I hoard the BP that I have and do the BP booster w.Pyrodex thing - even in my flintlock.

Pete

 

[shmrck1]

Pete,
If UPS delivers,you are abolutely correct,
they require a sig.(Not a bad thing in my opinion)
Request FED-EX and they will and have left it
at my front door.10# at a time.No sig., no questions.(not a bad thing either)
I have received many Fed/Ex deliveries,but none
afetr 10am. UPS 10am to[url] 6pm.In[/url] one way I prefer
UPS because I usually get the same driver.I have
never seen the same F/X driver twice.
snake-eyes :hmm:

 

[montanadan]

Comus-about three years ago I did some testing of sub's.I sent batches to some friends of mine that work with solid fuel rockets,I wanted certain tests run that I could not do myself.such as compositions,burn rates,ignition temperatures,compression tests and burn rates under compression.Tested everything except Black Mag.,without a doubt T-7 is the most powerful of the Sub's tested.However T-7 can and will become very erractic with large charges and to much compression.If I had to pick one all around SUB,probably would be goex Pinnacle,the easiest to use(being the closet to black powder)as far as ignition,burn rates.Goex and Swiss were also tested.Also Pinnacle was the least hygroscopic(absorbs moisture),like I said I did not include Black mag.The burnt residue from all the Sub's were tested,all I can and will say is they are lot unfounded "tales" going around about sub's.I shoot primarily swiss,does not mean you should.i hope this has helped...Respectfully montanadan

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I have shot Pyrodex in my BP revolvers with good results, but seems maybe a little better groups with BP. I haven't had any luck with it in my Caplock rifles other than with a light 'plinking' load.Then it does OK. but that 'crud ring' of fouling Pyro produces ahead of the breech area is tough to clean. BP is easier to clean.

 

[rabjr]

There is no substitute for Black Powder... :v

 

[Darkgael]

Thanks. I usually have it shipped UPS. I will keep the FedEx thing in mind.
Pete

 

[Bob J]

Comus-
Before I "saw the light" :wink: I went thru a phase of using subs in my percussion rifles. Triple 7, Black Mag3 and Goex Pinnacle gave me good accuracy and were very clean burning. I think the later two were maybe even easier cleaning than the first.

Now that I only shoot flintlocks, I stick with the real thing - Goex blackpowder - and avoid the soul-less subs :blah:

BTW, personally I think its in our interest to support American-made Goex by purchasing real blackpowder so they'll keep making it :v

 

[bart_anastasi]

While others are talking about the American Rifleman article well I read it to.

Liked it a lot though I took a different point of view since I shoot BP regularly but have tried some 777.

From looking at my loading information contained in the guns I have bought I liked the information on velocity and bullets in T/C's Firestorm book. which gives data vor BP, Pyro and777.

First the comparisons were made against a single bullet weight for all of these powders which is OK as far as it goes at first.

According to my little book.

1. with a 175 gr PRB I can expect 100 gr of BP to be 250fps faster than pyrodex. It takes 140 grains by volume of Pyro to get the same bullet speed as 110 grains of BP

2. with a 375 gr Maxi I can expect BP to be 200fps slower than pyrodex.

3. some where in the TC charts I have for my rifle the break even point for bullet weight is some where around 240 grains.

4. We could expect this if subs are slower burning they would have a advantage using a heavy bullet.

5. One big mistake the writer made in considering this problem of not getting a complete burn on powder with the bullet he was shooting was the easy solution of getting a heaveier bullet.

6. Around the range here I often see people shooting pellets with maximum loads and the lightest bullet they can get. You need to have them stand to one side of their line of fire and have a friend fire the gun to see a little column of smoke flying down range to get them to believe you are not pulling their leg. The answer there is not go get a hotter cap or a longer barrel but a heaver bullet.

7. Did anyone else chring when the guy started to talk about crushing pellets to stop squib loads.

8. While I thought the velocity information usefull I did think it incomplete.

9. does the deer really care how fast the bullet is going when it is dead?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Remember that the data was for Muzzle Velocity. I don't know too many hunters who shoot deer at the end of their muzzles! :youcrazy:

Donw range velocity is much more critical information for hunters. PRB is so bad ballistically, that it sheds a few hundred FPS in velocity in the first 20-50 yards. Pushing a PRB out the barrel only makes that ball slow faster when it hits the air. Its a law of physics, that we can't change.

I would be much more interested in knowing the velocity for these powders at 50 and 100 yards. Then a table giving a standard range of variations in velocities for a give powder would help me understand which powder is likely to be more accurate. For instance, if Powder A give a velocity at 100 yds of 900 fps, but has a range of velocities of only plus or minus 20 fps, I could compare that to Powder B, which has a velocity at 100 yards of 925 fps, but has a range of velocity of plus or minus 50 fps. Powder B would give me the impression that its a " faster " powder, until I saw that range of velocities. Then, Powder A seems to be the better choice.

 

[wvbuckbuster]

I bought 25lbs of Goex black powder from Powder Inc. (listed on Goex web site) in August and it was shipped by Fedx. I had to sign for the shipment. The driver told me Fedx had changed its policy. Just thought you might want to know. Everything went smooth and would but from them again.

 

[brubincam]

I ordered from Powder Inc. this spring,,,heard a thud on the porch, went out and there lie my powder,no signature needed [I guess]

 

[Runner]

If you are going to use Pyrodex with roundball, you have to use a tight fitting load. I use 495's in my 50's and I am thinking about getting a .500 mould for one of my guns.