Cock and Frizzen Alignment

[Valkyrie]

i have a TVM Late Lancaster. Great rifle with a large Siler lock. I noticed when looking from above the cock is slightly out of alignment with the frizzen face and I have to shift my flint outboard about a 16th of an inch to get it to line up with the frizzen face and not gouge the barrel above the touch hole when it fires. Now understand the rifle is extremely reliable and sparks great. In fact last time at the range it went 73 shots before she misfired on the same flint.

Is this normal or is something not right with my lock?

 

[plmeek]

If your lock is getting 73 shots on the same flint without a misfire, then it obviously is functioning properly. The minor alignment problem appears to be cosmetic only.

This type of misalignment is not common but does occur occasionally. It can be caused when the cock is not fit to the square on the tumbler properly and ends up at a slight angle. It can also happen when the hole for the hammer screw isn't drilled parallel to the axis of the tumbler, and the screw, when tightened, slants the cock one way or the other. Another problem can occur during the handling of the wax castings. The wax positive for the cock could have been bent slightly during handling or shipping to the foundry. Or it may have been bent when it was being mounted on the wax tree.

I have a rifle with a Chambers early Ketland lock that has a frizzen whose face isn't square to the pan and cock. This could only happen if the frizzen wax positive was bent during handling, shipping, or mounting on the wax tree. It still fires the rifle, but it wears the flint funny.

Phil Meek

 

[Crewdawg445]

i have a TVM Late Lancaster. Great rifle with a large Siler lock. I noticed when looking from above the cock is slightly out of alignment with the frizzen face and I have to shift my flint outboard about a 16th of an inch to get it to line up with the frizzen face and not gouge the barrel above the touch hole when it fires. Now understand the rifle is extremely reliable and sparks great. In fact last time at the range it went 73 shots before she misfired on the same flint.

Is this normal or is something not right with my lock?

I have a chambers lock that exhibit's similar attributes, you need not worry as it functions properly and is merely cosmetic. On second thought, your rifle is likely unserviceable and you should send it my way ASAP!

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Getting 73 shots if awesome, don't worry about the small stuff. Here is a photo of my large Siler.
The rifle is in the construction stage.
Flintlocklar

 

[Rat]

Interesting, but certainly not a functional problem.

 

[rafterob]

I had same issue with a large Siler. Luckily a good gunsmith was able to heat it and bend it nice and square. Sparks twice as much now.

 

[Valkyrie]

Thanks guys but I think I didn’t describe correctly what I’m seeing.

The cock and frizzen are perfectly square with each other but they are not on the same plane laterally meaning forward to aft. It’s slight. Like I said, I have to scoot my flint just a bit outboard to keep it from hitting the barrel flat and get the full width of the frizzen.

 

[Zonie]

Aligning the flint so that it doesn't hit the barrel is a common need and it shouldn't cause a problem.
A little bit, "tongue in cheek" I'll say, nowhere is it written that, "The jaws of the cock on the lock must be centered with the face of the frizzen or it shall be deemed defective."

 

[Grenadier1758]

Do you have a swamped barrel?
To line the lock up with a swamped barrel, the rear of the lock is moved slightly out and the lock plate flows the flat of the barrel. This can give an impression that the lock is out of alignment with the stock, but it is perfectly fine.

In any event, if you are getting 73 shots out of your flint, there is nothing wrong with the lock and I wouldn't let a little aligning of the flint so it clears the barrel bother me.

 

[Valkyrie]

Aligning the flint so that it doesn't hit the barrel is a common need and it shouldn't cause a problem.
A little bit, "tongue in cheek" I'll say, nowhere is it written that, "The jaws of the cock on the lock must be centered with the face of the frizzen or it shall be deemed defective."

Thanks. I figured as much but just wasn’t sure. Like I said above, the rifle is stupid reliable and accurate.

 

[Darkhorse]

Sounds like any Large Siler I've worked on. Including the 2 large silers on my personal hunting rifles. Part of setting a new flint is checking that it doesn't gouge the barrel flat, the fix is simple, just slide it over a bit before tightening.
After the flint is positioned where you want it, hold the frizz shut and gently let the hammer down until the flint contacts the frizz, now hold both together tight so the flint is jammed against the frizz, now tighten down the flint. Now the flint and frizzen face should be perfectly lined up. If not check for your high points and tap those spots with a brass rod to knap off the high spots.
This will serve to not only square up those 2 surfaces but to sharpen the flint a little also. I do this when setting a hunting flint and desire the most sparks possible.

 

[M. De Land]

To begin with it is important that the axis of the frizzen and hammer be parallel to each other and that the frizzen and cock levers are straight and level to each other or the flint face will not be in parallel contact with the frizzen face through out it's arc.
This is where the heating and bending adjustments should be made once the lock seat is anchored.
Another aspect of good strike geometry is that the arcs of both levers (frizzen and cock) must be close enough to each other to insure flint contact through out the cocks travel.
Lastly the main spring and the frizzen spring need to be adjusted to each other (balanced) to insure the frizzen does not exit flint contact before the cock arc is completed.
In my opinion many marginally sparking locks can be made into very good spark generators if these three areas are addressed and accomplished correctly.

 

[M. De Land]

One of the reasons locks have out of parallel frizzen and cock axis's is because the plate is either permanently bent or tension bent from the off side tether screw or screws and poor stock seating support.
In my opinion this is where glass bedding really shows it's value as it will support the lock plate from bending when the tether screws are snugged up as it will not compress as wood or lack there of will. It does not take much screw pressure to bend a plate out or level/flat and thus mess with the cock and frizzen axis parallel.

 

[M. De Land]

Another issue in keeping axis's parallel between frizzen and cock is the cock hole through the side plate fit. Many are sloppy which insures out of parallel. These are bearing holes not just ports for the end of the tumbler cock purchase. They should be reamed and preferably lapped to fit the tumbler bearing precisely.
Cock bearings that are this well fit also certainly need a bridled Frizzen's to take advantage of it.

 

[hanshi]

Three of my Chambers locks are like that and shoot just fine. Positioning the flint is something one usually must do on the locks.

 

[Murph507]

Same issue .

 

[Pete G]

Typical with Siler locks. Not a problem at all.