Casehardening Cast Frizzen

[ericb]

After about a thousand rounds the Frizzen Face on my Pedersoli Charleville is showing signs of getting a little tired. I've rehardened a couple of Frizzens, but they were off originals and that was long ago, using an Oxyacetylene torch & Kasenit. While I'm not a metallurgist, I know there's a difference between the original forged frizzens and the modern cast steel ones. Is there anything different about rehardening a cast frizzen that I need to know? I still have a bunch of the old style Kasenit from over 30 years ago...

Eric

 

[rich pierce]

There's a risk that when you quench in water after Kasenit that it could crack. In generla Kasenit hardening is pretty shallow. Other options that are more work but longer lasting:

1) Half-sole it with a piece of 1095 spring steel or old file by brazing or riveting, quenching in transmission fluid. Check with a file for hardness, temper to 450 degrees in an oven in a tin can full of sand and a thermometer for a couple hours.

2) Pack harden it for a couple hours. Don't quench. After the carbon soak, re-heat and quench in transmission fluid and temper as above.

 

[ericb]

Thanx Rich. Never Pack Hardened before, but as much as I shoot this Gun I gather it's the way to go for a deeper longer lasting result. I'm willing to give it a go as soon as I do a little more homework on the matter. But you say not to quench after the initial Carbon Soak? Only draw temper in Oven?

E

 

[rich pierce]

Whenever I don't know what kind of steel a part is, I worry about the water quench cracking it. So one way to get carbon into it and not risk cracking it is to pack caseharden it for at least 2 hours at an organge heat, let the whole mess cool, take the part out and reheat to above non-magnetic, quench in transmission fluid, check to see if it has become glass hard, then temper at 450.

 

[ericb]

Got it. And I've been trying to find out exactly what kind of Steel Pedersoli uses in their Frizzens, but other than the fact that it's different from from what a lot of the American Frizzens are and that it's a "milder" steel, I can't find out much.

Thanks for the help Rich. When this Baby was sparkin' and using big old Black English Musket Flints it went off like a Centerfire Rifle, & I got real spoiled. Put a thousand rounds through it since last July when I got it; I reckon the Frizzen doesn't owe me a thing.

Have plenty of Lump Charcoal I can powder up for Carburizing compound - need to come up with a suitable container for crucible...

Eric

p.s. - Will do this in fire pit - with dry maple and Lump Charcoal for Heat Source...some suggest light fanning of fire...you have opinion on that?

 

[rich pierce]

My buddy Tom Curran makes a fire brick chimney with fire bricks staggered log cabin style to about 16" high with a grate underneath (can be hardware cloth or even an old fireplace or gas grill grate). He has the whole setup elevated a bit so it draws air like a chimney from below. After tinder in the bottom he uses about 6-8" of charcoal lump, then the container which has charcoal packed in around the part, then more charcoal lump on top and around it. For something like a frizzen you can use a soup can, pack the frizzen in charcoal, put more on top, and hammer the top flat, folded over. He fires it up and if you have some air spaces in the chimney you can see if the can is hotter than red hot. If not you'll need some air driving it.

In this case after 2 hours you could let the whole thing cool down, take the part from the tin can, and harden and temper as suggested above.

I would have another fire pit going with hardwood burning in it in case the chimney needed reloading with hot coals. Just use a round pointed shovel.

 

[ericb]

Thanx Rich - a great help...

Eric

 

[paulvallandigham]

My brother has hardened- or rehardened questionable modern frizzens( ie. those made in other countries)---Using Kasenit.

Hold the frizzen by the pivot tab, on the side of a bench vise with the face up and parallel to the ground/floor. Use an Acetylene Torch to the underside, or front of the frizzen. Pour the Kasenit on the face of the frizzen and continue the heat until the stuff bubbles. Keep adding more Kasenit until it doesn't bubble anymore. The top of the frizzen will be red/orange in color, while the bottom and tab next to the jaws of the vise, or in the vise, respectively will not be that hot, the vise serving as a "heat sink". Hold a bucket of Warm Water- even Hot water-- up close to the underside of the vise, so that when you open the jaws, the frizzen falls a short way into the water. There will be a lot of sputtering and bubbling in the bucket, but the scale created by the Kasenit will break off, leaving a new, hard, frizzen face.

The longer you hold the frizzen at high heat, and soak the kasenit into it, the deeper the carbon goes into the steel. NO, it won't penetrate complete through the steel- perhaps .004" at most. But, you can get a lot of use out of such a hardened frizzen with just that much hardened steel.

CAUTION: Make sure you polish the face of the frizzen smooth, removing gouges and deep scratches from the surface BEFORE hardening it again. And, if you do a lot of shooting, don't let those gouges re-occur. If you see them being created, the angle at which your flint edge is striking the frizzen face is wrong.

Optiminal angle is 60 degrees at the point of impact. Flint is hard enough to cut steel in a SLICING motion, rather than gouging out chunks.

First point of Impact with the Face should be 2/3 up from the closed base of the frizzen, and you should have scrape marks( scratches) from the flint's cutting action in the middle third of the face. There should be no scratches in the bottom 1/5-1/3 of the face of the frizzen.

The timing of the opening of the frizzen is dependent on these angles and relationships, so that it "pops" open in time to get out of the way so that the sparks created by the falling flint will be Thrown down into the priming powder, arriving long before the cock stops its forward motion. This is also the reason that you want minimal force being put by the frizzen spring against the cam on the bottom of the frizzen. :hmm:

 

[ericb]

Thanx Paul - was hoping you'd chime in. As usual, there's more than one way to skin a Cat - and I appreciate all the pointers and opinions I can get.

Re: Angle Flint strikes frizzen - your brief discussion points out why and how one Flint position, angle/bevel of Flint face vs another is critical to making the whole thing work. With this particular gun I found that with the thinner Fuller type Flints that ignition was only ok at best; with the thinner Flints and their shallower Bevels the angles were simply not right. I had a Rock Crusher. When I went to original GI Issue Musket Flints (Thick, ungainly, and with a thick steep-beveled Face - it was a whole different story - The steeper bevel is a good match to the curve of the frizzen, and it skims rather than slams the Fizzen Face. Much easier on Flints and Frizzens - I can often go 30-40 shots without an edge dressing, and have gone over 50 shots on at least one occasion - with no misfires. Before pronouncing a Lock's Geometry as bad or unworkable (a complaint I have seen more than once about this particular Pedersoli Lock), one needs to seriously examine this critical aspect of the ignition process...

Eric

 

[Rifleman1776]

Much of what Paul said is how I do it.
I have done a Pedersoli Brown Bess frizzen that way. Can only surmise it is a twin frizzen to your Charlie. Only difference in my way and Paul's is I use a Propane or Mapp torch. I coat the face with motor oil then put on the Kasenit. I heat to max, almost yellow, as possible with the torch then let it fall about three feet into a bucket of water. The water is cold, right out of the outside spigot. If it hits with a loud "POW" I know the hardening took. I clean, reinstall and shoot for another twenty years.
This method was given me by my friend, Hawk.

 

[ericb]

Thanx Rifleman - I kinda like the "POW" thing - I'm gonna make sure to listen for that....

Eric

 

[paulvallandigham]

It "POWs" in whatever water it hits. Using hot water simply prevents any cracking of the frizzen- which is rare today with the steels used now to make these frizzens, at least by American makers.