Can't figure this one out

[sprinkman]

Hi,I need some help on this one.Barrel is 44 1/2 .around .700 inches is the smooth bore.Flat lock plate measures 6 1/8 X 1 1/4.There are some markings i can't identify on barrel and lock' Link

This musket doesn't fit into something i have seen.Sometimes i think it's a miss mash of parts.

any ideas?

 

[shooyer_250]

No idea...I just wanted to say from what I could see It's a mighty nice looking flintlock, I hope the quality lives up to the appearance...

God Bless

Lee

 

[TFoley]

Hi,I need some help on this one.Barrel is 44 1/2 .around .700 inches is the smooth bore.Flat lock plate measures 6 1/8 X 1 1/4.There are some markings i can't identify on barrel and lock' Link

This musket doesn't fit into something i have seen.Sometimes i think it's a miss mash of parts.

any ideas?

The barrel at least is Belgian - it has the Perron [looks like a small version of Nelson's column] stamped on the breech. This was the sole Belgian proof from Liege - gun-making capital of Belgium - between those two dates, hence the lack of any other marks.

This dates it between 1672 and 1810.

It also has points in favour of a martial arm - sling swivels and the very Brown Bess-looking stock.

Nice piece of whatever it is.

tac

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Is oit possible to see a better image of the marking on the tail of the lock? It is marked "US" is it not? If so, this would indicate that it was a US acquisition in the period after the American Revolution - very late 18th or very early 19th Century. It is a very interesting piece of Belgian origin.

 

[TFoley]

Is oit possible to see a better image of the marking on the tail of the lock? It is marked "US" is it not? If so, this would indicate that it was a US acquisition in the period after the American Revolution - very late 18th or very early 19th Century. It is a very interesting piece of Belgian origin.

You bin peekin' at my notes, eh?

tac

 

[sprinkman]

Hi again,
I'm not sure i agree on the Belgium marks.There is a b with a small crown over it on the lock.I have never personally seen the nelson's column on a gun.just drawings of proofs.So i'm not qualified to say.Just my opinion.
In my opinion it more resembles a 1763 charleville.The proofs,lack of spring on the middle barrel band and the different hammer shape,make me wonder.
The US mark on the lock does appear on some charleville's.Washington passed a resolution to stamp french arms imported during the war with US.
The trigger guard looks french to me.
On the bottom of the stock is a J S or US over a_ _ ursuin The _ _ is where the js is.That could be a stamp for maryland as it was kept there for a while?Also on the stock is a roman numera V and the capital letters IN.
These are the things that puzzle me.That why i say it might be a mish mash of parts cannibalized from guns and parts when washington showed up near boston in 1775 and found guy's without guns.They started raiding for weapons(i belive).
I'm no expert.
I'm not sold on the belgium thing.Hoping for more in put.Thanks

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Looks a little "froggy" to me.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Possibly a Belgian copy of an M1754 French musket. All the French muskets had iron barrel bands and only the middle one appears to be on this one. Looks like a '54 lock. The US surcharge on the lock could have very well been applied during the Revolution. The stamping at the end of the trigger guard appears to be a poorly done US surcharge overstamped on whatever name that is underneath. I'm not sure at this time about the Crown over B on the lock. Normally, French muskets of this period use a Fleur-de-lis over a letter. I couldn't see any other markings besides this and the US surcharges in the pictures shown.

 

[alex efremenko]

It says French to me.what does the buttplate look like? That would help some. The French did make brass timmed military guns.usually for Naval duties. I will do some research & see what i can find.

 

[sprinkman]

I will add the butt plate pic.I have taken this musket completely apart looking for more marks.What i have listed is it.The middle barrel band is steel the others are brass.
Thanks

 

[TFoley]

Hi again,
I'm not sure i agree on the Belgium marks.There is a b with a small crown over it on the lock.I have never personally seen the nelson's column on a gun.just drawings of proofs.So i'm not qualified to say.Just my opinion.
In my opinion it more resembles a 1763 charleville.The proofs,lack of spring on the middle barrel band and the different hammer shape,make me wonder.
The US mark on the lock does appear on some charleville's.Washington passed a resolution to stamp french arms imported during the war with US.
The trigger guard looks french to me.
On the bottom of the stock is a J S or US over a_ _ ursuin The _ _ is where the js is.That could be a stamp for maryland as it was kept there for a while?Also on the stock is a roman numera V and the capital letters IN.
These are the things that puzzle me.That why i say it might be a mish mash of parts cannibalized from guns and parts when washington showed up near boston in 1775 and found guy's without guns.They started raiding for weapons(i belive).
I'm no expert.
I'm not sold on the belgium thing.Hoping for more in put.Thanks

Sorry that my input is not what you want to hear, but this is MY total input from what I've seen on this actual gun - the image shows it -

1. The Perron stamp on the breech is the Liege [Belgium] proof for ALL weapons prior to 1810.

2. The crown over ANY letter of the alphabet appears on arms proofed in Liege [Belgium] between 1853 and 1877, which is rather odd...

You will note that I wrote that 'at least the barrel is Belgian in origin' - for the rest, I bow to your greater knowledge.

tac

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

It is French, there is no doubt about it, not all French muskets had steel bands, brass mountings are scarce but by no means rare.

The "US" would indicate that it was in American possession after the Revolution, George Washington's resolution notwithstanding. The US Stamp appeared on many arms acquired both during and after the Revolution whether acquired by capture, gift or purchase from European manufacturers. These purchases, mostly from England (oddly enough), continued throughout the 1790s and into the early 1800s. For detailed information see American Military Shoulder Arms, Vol 2 From 1790's to the End of the Flintlock Period by George Moller.

 

[JV Puleo]

I have seen the "crowned B" though off the top of my head I can't remember where. I do think it is likely a Belgian mark. That, in itself, means very little as many of the so-called "Dutch" guns that were imported after the Revolution (there were tens of thousands of them) came through Antwerp and other Dutch ports. The term was very generic at the time and is more likely to reflect where they were shipped from as opposed to where they were made. Belgium was a geographical term until 1830, prior to that it was ruled by Spain, then Austria and then France. It was incorporated into metropolitan France during the Napoleonic period and virtually nothing was exported from 1795 to 1816. All production went into French and French allied military service.

I think if it were a French martial arm it would be far more extensively marked. My gut feeling is that its a Belgian-made "psuedo French musket" made for the commercial trade some time before 1795 and was probably imported as a used gun some time after 1816. I am very skeptical of the surcharge... about 90% of the surcharged muskets are faked (the marking, not the gun).

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

:applause:
Excellent post.

 

[Mickc01]

From the pictures, the lock looks to be in awefully good shape. Wonder if it has been polished or dare a say...replaced? In any event, that is one heck of a nice musket!

 

[JV Puleo]

It is in nice condition but that isn't all that unusual. Many flint guns, especially late ones, had a fairly short working life, if they weren't converted. The waters are hopelessly muddied by thoughtless and (to my mind) pointless reconversion - converted flint guns frequently had a very long working life and are much more likely to be found in flogged condition.

 

[JV Puleo]

I ought to have added, because it is very important, that from 1816 to 1830 what we call Belgium was part of the Netherlands... thus "Belgian" guns actually were "Dutch" in the post War of 1812 world.

 

[bdhutier]

Looks an aweful lot like either a re-worked FRENCH 1816 Grenadier, or a US 1795 musket. Those seem to fit the styling, and the furniture, but the barrel stamps are curious. The breech looks stamped with the flaming bomb of the US Ordnance Corps, but the proof mark looks most like the 1897 St. Etienne House French mark where the horizontals of the F didn't make it on due to barrel curvature. The crowned B on the lock plate could possibly be the mark of the inspector Daniel Bouyssavy (Versailles), but I haven't been able to find a good pic to verify.

At this point, I'd bet it's one of those muskets, but has been pieced together over the years with repairs and refits.