Brown Bess with Russian Marks????

[Jonathan Lovell]

Hi all
I am working on two flintlock muskets (one is a conversion), They are both marked T and GB over the barrel and in other places and dated to 1760. These appear to be British marks and the guns are basically Long Land pattern Brown Besses set up in Sweden (probably using Swedish stocks) and a doglock. Both gun barrels are marked with 3 point crowns. This type of crown is also on the coat of arms for the Swedish Riksdag (tre kronor) of the 18th century and onwards.
This 3-point crown is also associated with the City of Vyborg, Russia. In addition, the first indented box cartouche on the side plate of my Pomeranian musket appears to show a capital N followed by two overlapping Vs and an H (NWH); this symbol also appeared on the Vyborgskiy Infantry Ordinance Flag during the 7 Years War. See picture.
This does not seem possible until I consider that Russian Iron exports to Britain doubled around 1760 and Vyborg was most probably the embarkation point.
Has anyone else seen anything like this before?
Thanks in anticipation.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You might have model1747 Swedish muskets, which were very Bess-like when made. After 1721, The Kingdom of Sweden slowly declined, as it did not have the resources to hold and support its territories. Eastern Sweden fell to Russia in 1809, and it was then called the Grand Principality of Finland. So, especially with having a flint conversion, you may have muskets that fell into Russian hands at that time, and were marked as such after that date.

LD

 

[Jonathan Lovell]

Hi Dave,
I am certain it is not the M1747, the side plate is wrong. It is definitely the M1760/1762. The stock fore-end of the gun in the photo is not original, neither are the last two thimbles. I have a second Swedish musket from the same year that is completely intact and nearly identical. The Swedish museum show the same two variants for the M1760/62. All have the T over GB mark.

 

[Jonathan Lovell]

I also do not know what to make of the capital R. It is stamped under the barrels of both guns. Perhaps it stands for Russia.

 

[Jonathan Lovell]

I just found another identical gun to my pair. It also has the Vyborg emblem and the GB marks together on the side plate. It has been identified as Swedish. Britain supplying Russia with arms in 1760, interesting…..

 

[TFoley]

Sir, it would seem to me that you have answered your own question.

 

[Jonathan Lovell]

I didn’t mean to, sorry. I found this all out over the last 24 hours and the Vyborg stamp this morning.

 

[TFoley]

It is of no consequence - you need not say sorry for anything. You posted an interesting post, after all, and for most of us it was a look at a part of firearms history of which we were unaware. What I know about the Swedish and their former huge empire, their battles with Russians and the involvement of Poland and Lithuania [and others] in the Great Northern Wars, could be written on the toenail of a gnat.

 

[Jonathan Lovell]

Thanks, I really did not expect to find another with that mark. Also, the barrel is 42 inches so it is more like a Short Land Pattern.

 

[TFoley]

For a really well-enacted take on the Great Northern War, I recommend the 2007 Russian movie - The Sovereign's Servant (Russian: Слуга государев, Sluga Gosudarev). It depicts the events of the Great Northern War, with a particular focus on the Battle of Poltava. There is a great deal of battlefield mayhem and slaughter, as well as a LOT of use of infantry at Army level. A close look at the arms used would not go amiss, since this movie was made with little regard for the cost of producing it. There were, for example, over 20,000 REAL extras, NOT CGI.

 

[Don Maurizio]

The English supplied the Swedes with Brown Bess muskets in their war against the Russians (Finnish War of 18

08–09). In the this engraving the Finnish troops of the Swedish army give up their rifles to the Russians as they march past the church in Kemi after the Capitulation of Kalix (March 25, 1809). That must be the way the English-made muskets ended in Russian hands!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If they were fully British, they would not have had the exterior dog-lock as found on Swedish muskets int

The English supplied the Swedes with Brown Bess muskets in their war against the Russians (Finnish War of 18

08–09). In the this engraving the Finnish troops of the Swedish army give up their rifles to the Russians as they march past the church in Kemi after the Capitulation of Kalix (March 25, 1809). That must be the way the English-made muskets ended in Russian hands!

If they were 100% British Bess, they would not have had the dog-lock feature on the exterior of the lock, as did Swedish muskets up into the 19th century. Having a British proof means that the barrels were proofed in England, but not necessarily the whole musket being made there. The images posted by the OP, if I'm not mistaken that they are of the muskets in question, show bayonet lugs ventral on the barrel and a front sight post on the dorsal of the barrel, Not Bess barrels, for sure. Further, some of the British muskets were made by private contractors, who may have been contracted by the Swedes to produce muskets with some Swedish specs, i.e. the locks, and the barrels.

LD

 

[Don Maurizio]

Ok. The surrender in Kalix was one occasion after which rifles passed from Swedes to the Russians. I am not sure, but I think I read somewhere that the reason why the Swedes were short of muskets when the war against the Russians broke out in Feb. 1808 was because they had sold some rifles to Russians (and to some other of their allies against Napoleon) before the war. After the Treaty of Tilsit in July 1807, Russians tried to make Sweden join the Continental System and when they did not succeed at that, they attacked Sweden.

 

[Stantheman86]

The Russians never threw anything away, they acquired and stored weapons they captured in every conflict they have ever been involved in . They either intend to issue these captured weapons to peasants or give them as aid to allies

There are written accounts of flintlock muskets being issued during Russia's involvement in WWI, because anything and everything was cleared out of every arsenal and issued whether there was ammunition or not . If it had a bayonet , it was usable

I used to collect Mosin Nagants and I had M91s with so many property stamps the rifle looked like a piece of luggage. Austrian , Finnish, Serbian, etc etc. I'm like how many soldiers either died carrying this thing or surrendered it, or it was captured and sold later...... Weapons changed hands over and over during the 1700s-1900s period.

 

[TFoley]

The Russians never threw anything away, they acquired and stored weapons they captured in every conflict they have ever been involved in . They either intend to issue these captured weapons to peasants or give them as aid to allies

There are written accounts of flintlock muskets being issued during Russia's involvement in WWI, because anything and everything was cleared out of every arsenal and issued whether there was ammunition or not . If it had a bayonet , it was usable

I used to collect Mosin Nagants and I had M91s with so many property stamps the rifle looked like a piece of luggage. Austrian , Finnish, Serbian, etc etc. I'm like how many soldiers either died carrying this thing or surrendered it, or it was captured and sold later...... Weapons changed hands over and over during the 1700s-1900s period.

True, we are seeing Moisin-Nagant rifles of the oldest pattern, with arshins instead of metres on the sights, in use in Ukraine right now.

 

[cyten]

I also do not know what to make of the capital R. It is stamped under the barrels of both guns. Perhaps it stands for Russia.

Problem is that there is no "R" in the Russian alphabet. The cyrillic "R" is "Р"