Brown Bess with Russian Marks????

Discussion in 'Firearm Identification' started by Jonathan Lovell, Sep 10, 2019.

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  1. Sep 10, 2019 #1

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

    32 Cal

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    Hi all
    I am working on two flintlock muskets (one is a conversion), They are both marked T and GB over the barrel and in other places and dated to 1760. These appear to be British marks and the guns are basically Long Land pattern Brown Besses set up in Sweden (probably using Swedish stocks) and a doglock. Both gun barrels are marked with 3 point crowns. This type of crown is also on the coat of arms for the Swedish Riksdag (tre kronor) of the 18th century and onwards.
    This 3-point crown is also associated with the City of Vyborg, Russia. In addition, the first indented box cartouche on the side plate of my Pomeranian musket appears to show a capital N followed by two overlapping Vs and an H (NWH); this symbol also appeared on the Vyborgskiy Infantry Ordinance Flag during the 7 Years War. See picture.
    This does not seem possible until I consider that Russian Iron exports to Britain doubled around 1760 and Vyborg was most probably the embarkation point.
    Has anyone else seen anything like this before?
    Thanks in anticipation.
     

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  2. Sep 10, 2019 #2

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

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    You might have model1747 Swedish muskets, which were very Bess-like when made. After 1721, The Kingdom of Sweden slowly declined, as it did not have the resources to hold and support its territories. Eastern Sweden fell to Russia in 1809, and it was then called the Grand Principality of Finland. So, especially with having a flint conversion, you may have muskets that fell into Russian hands at that time, and were marked as such after that date.

    LD
     
  3. Sep 10, 2019 #3

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

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    Hi Dave,
    I am certain it is not the M1747, the side plate is wrong. It is definitely the M1760/1762. The stock fore-end of the gun in the photo is not original, neither are the last two thimbles. I have a second Swedish musket from the same year that is completely intact and nearly identical. The Swedish museum show the same two variants for the M1760/62. All have the T over GB mark.
     

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  4. Sep 10, 2019 #4

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

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    I also do not know what to make of the capital R. It is stamped under the barrels of both guns. Perhaps it stands for Russia.
     
  5. Sep 11, 2019 #5

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

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    I just found another identical gun to my pair. It also has the Vyborg emblem and the GB marks together on the side plate. It has been identified as Swedish. Britain supplying Russia with arms in 1760, interesting…..
     

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  6. Sep 11, 2019 #6

    TFoley

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    Sir, it would seem to me that you have answered your own question.
     
  7. Sep 11, 2019 #7

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

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    I didn’t mean to, sorry. I found this all out over the last 24 hours and the Vyborg stamp this morning.
     
  8. Sep 11, 2019 #8

    TFoley

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    It is of no consequence - you need not say sorry for anything. You posted an interesting post, after all, and for most of us it was a look at a part of firearms history of which we were unaware. What I know about the Swedish and their former huge empire, their battles with Russians and the involvement of Poland and Lithuania [and others] in the Great Northern Wars, could be written on the toenail of a gnat.
     
  9. Sep 11, 2019 #9

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

    Jonathan Lovell

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    Thanks, I really did not expect to find another with that mark. Also, the barrel is 42 inches so it is more like a Short Land Pattern.
     
  10. Sep 12, 2019 #10

    TFoley

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    For a really well-enacted take on the Great Northern War, I recommend the 2007 Russian movie - The Sovereign's Servant (Russian: Слуга государев, Sluga Gosudarev). It depicts the events of the Great Northern War, with a particular focus on the Battle of Poltava. There is a great deal of battlefield mayhem and slaughter, as well as a LOT of use of infantry at Army level. A close look at the arms used would not go amiss, since this movie was made with little regard for the cost of producing it. There were, for example, over 20,000 REAL extras, NOT CGI.
     

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