Seeking True Brown Bess Expert Opinions

[BradBrownBess]

I have a library of Brown Bess books - most useful being the Brown Bess by Goldstein and Mowbray for quick reference.
I own a Militia marked 1777 Short land.
I am on a relentless hunt for a Long Land 1748 or earlier - NOT easy to come by these days.

IMA sold a "listed 1742" a while back with lots of pictures. Link here:
Original American Revolutionary War British Pattern 1742 Long Land Bro – International Military Antiques (ima-usa.com)

That musket is now being old again through other means.

Granted VERY very few Long Land Patten muskets survived unmolestedly for so many reasons.
***Here is what I am seeing that has me scratching my head on this one***
1) That lock does not look 1742 to me - maybe it is the picture angles - not quite that pronounced banana shape (Am I wrong?)
2) The Crown over GR and the lock markings look good as I can see from photos - although not as worn a I would expect for age.
3) The frizzen screws look newer than I would expect for 250 years old - usually they are quite buggered and pitted. Though I will say these look correct for the gun.
3) The Tang screw is an abomination - Ace Hardware at some point I assume.
4) The Tang does not fit the wood carving for the Tang - to much space in the wood - but I have seen worse!
5) The lock fit at the rear - looks off - like the lock was not original to the gun - not HORRIBLE - but not what I expect.
6) The Barrel is 46" and fits tight to the stock. The stock has some repairs as should be expected and they were done well - probably period over time.
7) The ramrod is metal and that's wrong it should be wood - but not a concern to me - 99% of the original word rods are long gone. The rod IS Bess and iron tipped with arsenal markings
8) Brass nose cap is wrong for a 1742 Long Land. First appeared on 1748 - which are INSANELY rare so I know the stock is not a 1748 most likely.

Wondering what this gun is? Perhaps a 1742 or 1756 Bess that was put together as a "parts gun" - Arsenal done over the years? Garage Job to make money?

I should be getting photos of the inside of the lock, mortise, lock screws, and the tang screw soon.

Prices on these are 20K and going up routinely for good guns. Without this one in hand for a few days I can only guess. After I get photos - IF the gun still appears correct enough to warrant inspection I may travel to see it in person.

**I know Christian and IMA well - I know they get beat up a lot lot but Christian is a died-in-the-wool history lover and I've spent hours with him on the phone just talking antique guns. No real need to bash International Military Antiques - they are a business and sell tons of stuff "If you want something call and they should give you all the info"

Fire away!!!!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The musket in question has a lot of issues and I believe it has been faked. It is a pattern 1756 long land musket that somebody restocked. First the lock. It appears the government ordnance arrow stamp was engraved on the lock rather than stamped. Jordan spelled his name Iordan with an "I" not a nicely curled "J". I believe the contractor's name and date are forgeries. The stock has some peculiar features that are red flags. It is modeled after the pattern 1756 not earlier versions but the tang for the butt plate lacks the cross pin holding the front in place. The abrupt step at the breech on the side plate side and the rear ends of the lock panels are incorrect and the sloppy mounting of the forward sling swivel would not be found on Brown Besses. The long trumpet ramrod pipe is from the pattern 1756 and is not used on the earlier patterns. The ramrod is a replacement and has the wrong tip. It is possible that the musket was a colonial restock of some Bess parts except that somebody later forged the engraving on the lock. Finally, the barrel maker appears to be Richard Wilson, who did not make barrels for ordnance as far as I know. He did make commercial muskets many of which were purchased by the colonies.

dave

 

[BradBrownBess]

Great eye Dave - I am with you 100% - I believe its a "parts gun" that's been faked to deceive long ago. The Stock is certainly 1756 pattern. The fitting on that barrel is very sloppy and I do see the Richard Wilson mark now. The sheer horrible way the tang fits to the stock is one give away. I am looking at all photos and my 100% original 1777 Short Land - the ordinance mark is not even close - the one on this musket to auction is a forgery - poorly engraved at some point. The lock itself does not fit to the gun well at all as stated by the auction house - I called and had a "gun in hand conversation" The pan has at least a 1/8" gap between the barrel. Also the lock is not the elongated banana lock one would expect. I saw the the Trumpet ramrod entry pipe originally and put that in the category of "maybe arsenal upgraded". Glad I am reaching out to all my connections on these - I have been looking for a Long Land for years - they are becoming ghosts now! This one is a pass for me. Perhaps a gun for a "representation of a Rev War musket" - but the price one this piece to me would be 1/3 or less than opening bid.

 

[FlinterNick]

I don’t consider my self a Brown Bess expert per say.

I agree with Dave on every point. The stock looks like a 1756 stock to me, and the lock too Looks like a 1756 period ’straighter’ profiled lock. That aside, I’m not sure how they could call it a 1742, anyhow I’ve never trusted IMA at all when it comes to originals.

Regarding what you’re looking for.

1748 period brown Bess’s were not really what I would say were a distinctive long land pattern, since so few were made and the few that have survived are in almost mint condition in the Williamsburg Museum, one would say it was kind of a prototype design. Some reinactors seem to really want to reproduce this pattern, however none of these were really in service in North America during the Revolutionary War. A real 1748 is a slimmer 1742 musket with a steel rammer and smaller diameter pipes and a cast nose cap. Its really a precursor to the 1756 pattern. Jess Melot of the Rifle Shoppe believes they did away with the Banana shaped lock because of the steel rammer didn’t need a stock as heavy as a 1742, the 1742 had extra wood around the forearm and the stock had more drop, some think it was to save on lumber. Regardless, the 1748 transitional musket wasn’t made in enough significant numbers to be considered anything but a 1742 upgrade to the issues that plagued the 42 in the field.

For the original 1742 period muskets pretty much any that I’ve seen looked like they came up from the Titanic. Williamsburg has a nice specimen with American alterations what I would call an Americanized Bess, that is an add hoc sheet brass nose cap and a forged upper rammer and steel rod. But that’s the only one I’ve ever seen with these features. Some sea service muskets I’ve seen with steel rammers and springs rivited to the pipes to hold the rod in.


This is a good example of an Americanized 1742 up for auction that I think is more of a genuine Americanized bess, not sure if its a legit 1742 because the lock seems like it might have been a later upgrade or possible from a contracted gun.

https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-M...-BESS-MUSKET/lotInformation/60288620#topoflot
There are also many types of contract muskets that were issued during the French and Indian War that are confused with 1742 and 1756 muskets often marked by Wilson. Many of these contract guns are missing wrist plates and have different style furniture.

 

[Artificer]

I have a library of Brown Bess books - most useful being the Brown Bess by Goldstein and Mowbray for quick reference.
I own a Militia marked 1777 Short land.
I am on a relentless hunt for a Long Land 1748 or earlier - NOT easy to come by these days.

IMA sold a "listed 1742" a while back with lots of pictures. Link here:
Original American Revolutionary War British Pattern 1742 Long Land Bro – International Military Antiques (ima-usa.com)

That musket is now being old again through other means.

Granted VERY very few Long Land Patten muskets survived unmolestedly for so many reasons.
***Here is what I am seeing that has me scratching my head on this one***
1) That lock does not look 1742 to me - maybe it is the picture angles - not quite that pronounced banana shape (Am I wrong?)
2) The Crown over GR and the lock markings look good as I can see from photos - although not as worn a I would expect for age.
3) The frizzen screws look newer than I would expect for 250 years old - usually they are quite buggered and pitted. Though I will say these look correct for the gun.
3) The Tang screw is an abomination - Ace Hardware at some point I assume.
4) The Tang does not fit the wood carving for the Tang - to much space in the wood - but I have seen worse!
5) The lock fit at the rear - looks off - like the lock was not original to the gun - not HORRIBLE - but not what I expect.
6) The Barrel is 46" and fits tight to the stock. The stock has some repairs as should be expected and they were done well - probably period over time.
7) The ramrod is metal and that's wrong it should be wood - but not a concern to me - 99% of the original word rods are long gone. The rod IS Bess and iron tipped with arsenal markings
8) Brass nose cap is wrong for a 1742 Long Land. First appeared on 1748 - which are INSANELY rare so I know the stock is not a 1748 most likely.

Wondering what this gun is? Perhaps a 1742 or 1756 Bess that was put together as a "parts gun" - Arsenal done over the years? Garage Job to make money?

I should be getting photos of the inside of the lock, mortise, lock screws, and the tang screw soon.

Prices on these are 20K and going up routinely for good guns. Without this one in hand for a few days I can only guess. After I get photos - IF the gun still appears correct enough to warrant inspection I may travel to see it in person.

**I know Christian and IMA well - I know they get beat up a lot lot but Christian is a died-in-the-wool history lover and I've spent hours with him on the phone just talking antique guns. No real need to bash International Military Antiques - they are a business and sell tons of stuff "If you want something call and they should give you all the info"

Fire away!!!!

Hi Brad,

Not sure if you are aware of the examples of original Bess's you can view online?

Here's about as nice of an original P 1742 as you can find, except it is missing both sling swivels:

Pattern 1742 Land Service Musket – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Here's a nice P 1756.

Pattern 1756 Land Service Musket – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Sometimes it is very nice to have them in the same scale and both available more or less side by side on your browser, to look back and forth. Other models are also listed below the linked models in the links.

Gus

 

[BradBrownBess]

Thanks Gus and Flinternick! I've been to Williamsburg but did not know these were online. Any Long Land in as close to original as possible is what I seek. 1756 being the most likely candidate. Period repairs etc are fine and of course a few replaced bits, scars, etc. Unfortunately all Brown Bess (even the Short Land) have become very rare and 95% butchered and faked - by fakers and hackers, not people of the past that used them. Without examining one in hand with mag glass and good light its hard to tell. I did find and buy a very, very respectable 1777 short land - Militia barrel marked Musket - never saw the US as far as I can tell - it has that "old UK cleaning" - where it was common to bright clean all old arms - thank goodness that was 50+ year ago. But the stock, screws, ram rod, lock, etc are all correct and file marked to the gun.
Morphy and Poulin have fine auctions - but ALWAYS get at a minimum gun-in-hand-call if not in person visit. That Virginia Gun is true history but it looks like not an original piece is left accept a few bits. That auction does have a few fine, fine early British guns - those price estimates are always low guesses - generally take the high estimate and add 20% to get the hammer price.

Tim Prince (A fine, Fine man) found and sold this one in 2014 for 24K - would sell at least for that today if it could be had. Beautiful gun.
British Pattern 1742 Long Land Musket by Farmer - dated 1747 (collegehillarsenal.com)

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks Gus and Flinternick! I've been to Williamsburg but did not know these were online. Any Long Land in as close to original as possible is what I seek. 1756 being the most likely candidate. Period repairs etc are fine and of course a few replaced bits, scars, etc. Unfortunately all Brown Bess (even the Short Land) have become very rare and 95% butchered and faked - by fakers and hackers, not people of the past that used them. Without examining one in hand with mag glass and good light its hard to tell. I did find and buy a very, very respectable 1777 short land - Militia barrel marked Musket - never saw the US as far as I can tell - it has that "old UK cleaning" - where it was common to bright clean all old arms - thank goodness that was 50+ year ago. But the stock, screws, ram rod, lock, etc are all correct and file marked to the gun.
Morphy and Poulin have fine auctions - but ALWAYS get at a minimum gun-in-hand-call if not in person visit. That Virginia Gun is true history but it looks like not an original piece is left accept a few bits. That auction does have a few fine, fine early British guns - those price estimates are always low guesses - generally take the high estimate and add 20% to get the hammer price.

Tim Prince (A fine, Fine man) found and sold this one in 2014 for 24K - would sell at least for that today if it could be had. Beautiful gun.
British Pattern 1742 Long Land Musket by Farmer - dated 1747 (collegehillarsenal.com)

I would suspect that there are more better quality 1755 long lands than 1742’s. The 1755 long lands were plentiful in North America and Quebec at the start of the War and found their way into American Ranks. George Neumann‘s is on display at the valley forge museum.

The Best surviving 1742’s are almost all in museums Or private collections. I‘ve only actually been able to too handle one of them and the changes that were made to the original arm over the years are astounding.

1. The flintcock was replaced with a later period second or third model flintcock, as was the frizzen. The lock was a Jorden lock.

2. The butt stock was reduced with a cheek recess, this is likely an Americanized alternation For sighting down the barrel.

3. It had a wooden rammer that was a modern replacement, there was no indication that a steel rammer was ever substituted. The nosecap was made of brass or copper, I couldn’t tell by eye sight, green coloring made me think copper.

4. One of the barrel pins had a screw And sling swivels were missing.

5. Markings on the gun were NJ indicating New Jersey militia or regimental use on the butt.

 

[Artificer]

Tim Prince (A fine, Fine man) found and sold this one in 2014 for 24K - would sell at least for that today if it could be had. Beautiful gun.
British Pattern 1742 Long Land Musket by Farmer - dated 1747 (collegehillarsenal.com)

Thank you! I'm adding that to my collection of online sources.

Always got a kick out of a gunsmith named Farmer.

Gus

 

[lexington1]

I saw that Bess on IMA also, and before I even really looked at it I noticed the lockplate was not shaped correctly. My first thought is that it is probably a 1756 pattern that may have had some resto work to include replacing or at least remarking the original lock, as well as the other things. If so it's still a rare Bess, but a shame that it's not correct. Here is my 1746 dated Jordan which I am certain is correct. If you compare the engraving to the IMA lock it's pretty easy to notice the difference.

 

[BradBrownBess]

Thanks Lexington1. I had discussions with at least 5 experts and everyone agreed. Rare Bess but altered 1756....and some sloppy work. Rock Island is selling that one at their Premier auction. This one came up suddenly and i all the same calls and discussions. All came back 100% good with only a few tiny alterations. This is as rare a Bess as I will ever find. Free shipping, negotiated deal, 30 day no questions asked return. My 1777 short land came IMA and its 100% correct. I got over 50 pictures and had a 1.5 hour conversation with Christian. About twice what I wanted to spend but the condition is superb and i will most likely never see another. Tons of photos here to enjoy. Oh and there is a storekeeper stamp on butt and faint makers marks an the lock back.
https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...ward-cookes-dated-1729?variant=39289453117509

 

[FlinterNick]

Some variants of the 1730/40 era. Brown Bess muskets were issued with straight locks, I believe they were dragoon muskets and contract muskets.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

IMA sold a "listed 1742" a while back with lots of pictures. Link here:
That musket is now being old again through other means.

So IMI, well known for their parts being made into "original" muskets, and for selling kits with modern restock stocks that over a few years become "originals"...so to be fair, they have no control what others do with the guns or parts after they are sold....

IMI lists this.... Original Item: One-of-a-kind. IMA has acquired a collection of authentic American Revolutionary War weapons which, for the past 20 years, have been on display at the Princeton Battlefield State Park Thomas Clarke House Museum located in Princeton, New Jersey.

And MY first thought was..., WHY would either of those two museums, after displaying the items for two decades, suddenly vend authentic muskets through IMI or anybody else except through a reputable auction house?

With all of the observations, as mentioned by Mr. Person and others, my above question is answered.

Sorry that somebody may have spent the funds equivalent to a nice new car on something not worth 10% of that price.

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

So IMI, well known for their parts being made into "original" muskets, and for selling kits with modern restock stocks that over a few years become "originals"...so to be fair, they have no control what others do with the guns or parts after they are sold....

IMI lists this.... Original Item: One-of-a-kind. IMA has acquired a collection of authentic American Revolutionary War weapons which, for the past 20 years, have been on display at the Princeton Battlefield State Park Thomas Clarke House Museum located in Princeton, New Jersey.

And MY first thought was..., WHY would either of those two museums, after displaying the items for two decades, suddenly vend authentic muskets through IMI or anybody else except through a reputable auction house?

With all of the observations, as mentioned by Mr. Person and others, my above question is answered.

Sorry that somebody may have spent the funds equivalent to a nice new car on something not worth 10% of that price.

LD

I would never purchase from IMA.

Those East India Bess’s they sell look like they were raised from the Biszmark.

 

[BradBrownBess]

I buy from IMA on occasion, trust them, respect them, and never have had a bad experience - just bought this insanely rare musket this week - sometimes you buy when it appears and my chance at another 1730 in this condition - slim to none - 10 years, 20 , maybe never.

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...-flintlock-musket-by-edward-cookes-dated-1729
BUT - when I buy from them its a "process" as ALL high gun purchases should be. Ideally on this price gun I would fly up - but just not doable right now. So - I talked to Christian (If you don't know of him look him up he is a fascinating man - and after all he risked millions and potential harm to retrieve that cache from Nepal - His partner in that venture is a friend from my home town). I comb through 14 + books I have on British guns, spend 10 - 15 hours on the internet researching every inch and mark, and that's just a start. I have them strip the gun own to every piece and send detailed photos - for this gun I ended up with 76 photos. It was not de-pinned however by them - they wont do that on a 250+ year old gun.....However I did on several of the ramrod holders when I got it - they were perfect - hand filed and each custom marked with 200 plus years of grim.

Once I get all the info I can and am comfortable - I then go to my 2 or 3 friends who have been high end gun dealers for 30+ years each. I get their opinion and share it with IMA. After all the work - I then get a negotiated price we are both happy with and I also get a 30 day return no questions asked policy in writing.

NO company, or auction house gives me this kind of service bar none. Cowan's, Rock Island, Poulin Auctions and Morphy are good but they will sell fakes, mismatches guns, etc just like everyone. In the end YOU have to be an expert or close to what you are buying. No dealer, no private seller, or auction house is 100% perfect and - in case you don't know this - I would say the majority commit fraud routinely and DO know they are doing it - not just missing pieces by being sloppy.

So after all that work I did and negotiating, I got an overnighted 1730 Bess in about as nice a condition as a Bess can come in - close to the condition of the Williamsburg Example. It was packed with wood box, heavy foam, and triple cardboard - Shipped FREE. Christian called personally after getting the gun to go over it.

If you are just visiting web sites and clicking "buy" on 1000 dollar + guns - you are gonna get ripped off one day and soon. Then you have to fight to get your money back - auction house - you wont get you money back. What works for me is only buying high end guns from dealers whom I know personally. I'm more than happy to pay high retail for that service!I think its one of the few services where this is done at all anymore! If they will not do all I ask - I don't bid or buy period.

IMA botched the listing on the gun for sure - but it was very close and again - a call is all that is needed. Rock Island is more of the shameful auction for listing the identical gun with identical description - that had sold 3 year earlier. Rock Island is a company with the best of the best at times - but they list them HORRIBLY with bad pictures and little grading. They specialize in in person auctions.

There are some Brown Bess and Rev War weapons coming up at action soon. I will warn you -not 1 of them real, untouched, and original. BUYER BEWARE!!!!

 

[BradBrownBess]

I like IMA.

 

[FlinterNick]

All of original period muskets are compilations of original parts and some reproduction parts, at least the ones I’ve seen at auction. which is why I stay away from the original market.

 

[shoe303]

I buy from IMA on occasion, trust them, respect them, and never have had a bad experience - just bought this insanely rare musket this week - sometimes you buy when it appears and my chance at another 1730 in this condition - slim to none - 10 years, 20 , maybe never.

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...-flintlock-musket-by-edward-cookes-dated-1729

Brad,

That looks to be a very nice example of a very rare early Brown Bess. I saw the listing from IMA when it first came up for sale and have studied their pictures a couple times as I am in the slow process of building the Rifle Shoppe kit for this model. The moldings around the lock inletting are fantastic.

 

[FlinterNick]

Brad,

That looks to be a very nice example of a very rare early Brown Bess. I saw the listing from IMA when it first came up for sale and have studied their pictures a couple times as I am in the slow process of building the Rifle Shoppe kit for this model. The moldings around the lock inletting are fantastic.

Almost looks too good to be true in my opinion.

The only other long land I’ve seen in such good condition was a period 1747/48 Brown Bess at Williamsburg, which was in almost mint condition because it wasn’t assigned to an infantry regiment, so it remained in almost untouched condition before it was a museum specimen.

Its possible this 1730 era musket was some type of prototype to be patterned off of.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Shoe,
If you are building one, this may help.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...rown-bess-almost-ready-for-inspection.123947/
dave

 

[Throwdown58]

This is an awesome discussion. Thanks to the participants for parsing out your knowledge to a specific case. I learned a lot, and consistently learn a lot here. Now that I know what defarbing is, and how it has become a "thing" to completely transform new guns into old guns, I would never spend big money on an "original" anything. Years ago I did an article on Turnbull, and they had purchased the original dies from the old Colt factory to make their markings when they brought a gun back to new condition. They supposedly had protections in place to prevent fakes from making their way out to the market, but that's going to only be to the original guy, not the guy he sells it to, and certainly not the guy after that. Later Turnbull even made some exact replica guns, and the 1911 I have that we swapped them for advertising is only different from the original with one defarbable line of text. It is just too easy to fake things now, and the waves of prosperity in our industry since 2008 have brought in a lot of unsavory types. Then you have the fact that big names in gun appraisals were put in jail, and tens of thousands of guns passed through their corrupt hands, and to this day rely on their provenance. Parts guns like this are not the worse of the fraud that is out there, and I wonder what the percentage of collectible guns out there changing hands are actually elaborate fakes.