-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Brown Bess -Why
- Thread starter DuncNZ
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Okay, not an expert but my understanding was: At the start of the American Revolution we copied the Bess with a clone, a committee of Safety Musket. They were costing us somewhere between $10 to $14 each. Someone pointed out we could buy older French muskets for around $6 each, so...we ended up doing that. In any event we bought muskets from the French, the French didn't give them to us. Most of these were older models and not that great.
An entirely different matter arose when, after our Independence we started manufacturing our own muskets. Various types were compared and the French was favored so we copied that.
An entirely different matter arose when, after our Independence we started manufacturing our own muskets. Various types were compared and the French was favored so we copied that.
The Pedersoli is a close enough replica of the BB that it reflects effectively what was used in the AWI. I spoke and gave first person presentations at many places over the years. Discussing subtle nuances of the various original muskets would have been lost on the audiences. Having and showing it was an excellent teaching tool. FWIW, some have said the Japanese version is closer to being 'correct' than my Navy Arms/Pedersoli. That may be but I could not bring myself to own a representation of American Revolution history that had "made in Japan" stamped on it. Still wouldn't. India made either.
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2005
- Messages
- 3,472
- Reaction score
- 2,160
How does the lack of barrel bands help it to be a good small game gun?
My 2 cent observation. I like both, but having several originals and repos through the years I will say if I was a soldier and had to choose to carry, say a 1766 musket or a 2nd model Bess day in and day out, I would pick the 1766. It is lighter and straighter, which makes packing it around so much nicer. For all around style points, I would go Bess all the way. To me it is just very pleasing to the eye. Original ordnance Besses, however, are pretty heavy. Some are so straight in the stock that they are difficult to aim with getting a headache. All the 1763, 1766's, etc French muskets I have seen are nearly identical in having super straight stocks, so straight in fact that it's almost physically impossible to sight along the barrel. Pedersoli altered their Besses by reducing the overall size of them. Pretty much everything on a Pedo is slightly smaller than say an original 2nd model. That's not necessarily a bad thing as it does improve the shootablity of it considerably.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2018
- Messages
- 718
- Reaction score
- 524
But "Made in Italy" is ok?
Yes, even though it doesn't have it. America has a long, pre-rev history of importing firearms from Europe. I'm ok with that.
Is there anything sold in this country mass produced that isn't imported.
It helps with sight picture. When firing shot the ideal sight picture for a shooter is nothing but a bead and smooth barrel (or rib). This is why you don't see a lot of sporting shotguns advancing from the traditional bead sight - less is more in the shotgunning world. Anything extra that your eye can get distracted by can be an excuse for a miss.
I understand your point, and it's a good one. But playing devils advocate, the bayonet lug on a Bess looks like a brick on top of the barrel when you try to use it as a sight. The 1768 musket mods also have a bayonet lug on top, but the little blade on top of the band gives a considerably better sight picture. The 1766's and earlier put the lug on the bottom side of the barrel. Of coarse it's a moot point as I can't get my face down far enough to use it anyway. One exception is an original 1728 musket I have which fits me perfectly.
Perhaps it is a brick, but it is a brick that can be filed down or deleted without impeding core function of the gun. If you removed the bayonet lug on a bess, you simply cannot mount a bayonet. If you remove the barrel bands from a Charleville, you will create a self disassembling firearm.
Overall, the bess is closer in look and feel to a Fusil or trade gun than any of the 2 or 3 band muskets of the period.
You have got to get in the weeds to see the differences, then when you see originals they seem a little less regular then say a WTBS rifle or any gun post that.
My Centermark is less then a bench copy of a TFC but I’m still real happy with it, and it’s my favorite gun.
None of us can be 100%, we all draw a line and say I will go this far, but I can’t reasonably get closer.
I can’t think of one you can buy new today be it bench copy from rifle shop parts to a perdersoli to a loyalist arms I would be afraid to carry because it would be ‘incorrect’
Why would you remove the bands? That's like saying if you removed the pins on a Bess the barrel would fall off?
OhioHawkeye
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2012
- Messages
- 299
- Reaction score
- 272
I have a dozen ... all different makers and models. I love shooting them and using them for competition as well as for reenactments. ...
Why so many? They are for anytime in the 60 years war, not just the Rev war or War of 1812, and for different units and individual persons.
Why so many? They are for anytime in the 60 years war, not just the Rev war or War of 1812, and for different units and individual persons.
OhioHawkeye
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2012
- Messages
- 299
- Reaction score
- 272
I get your meaning, but it all comes down to shooting and knowing your gun. My two I use for deer hunting and competition alone both sight like my trade guns. I suppose I should 'bend' the barrels on all 4, but why mess with something that works. At 50 yards, I put the bottom of the sight (or in the case of the Bess) at slightly 6 oclock on the target. Boom. Target is hit with reasonable accuracy. I just adjust for distance from there.....get them on paper, and know your gun.
You are absolutely right. I have been collecting originals and shooting repos since the 70's. In my experience there is nothing cooler than studying originals. But, a lot of the repos actually are better choices as far as fit and shootablity. As an example I have 1742 Pattern Bess built by G.L. Jones in the late 70's/early 80's. I also have an original Jordan 1746 dated model. I can tell you that the Jones repo fits way better than the original. There is nothing wrong with not having a 100% bench copy of an original. But just don't try to convince yourself that an imported Bess is exactly the same as an original. But when it comes down to it so what? Be happy!
Amen brother!
I'm making the point that the Bess may have a bayonet lug on top that is blocky, it can be removed. If you remove the barrel bands of a Charleville, then the gun becomes inoperable. The nuance in the conversation is in regards to firing shot, not round ball for deer or people. A fine blade such as on later french muskets is widely irrelevant to the person shooting a passenger pigeoon on the wing or a rabbit busting from cover. Instinctive shooting and the ability to clearly see your target (rather than your sight) is what makes for hits in the shotgun world. Edit*: In my opinion, the bands on certain muskets obstruct and distract the shooter when shooting shot.
If we are talking which is the better deer gun? Then yes, the Bess loses, but this conversation is in regards to why it is so widely popular over the contemporary french muskets. Not which is more accurate, or technologically superior, but which attributes make it popular.
Ok, I gotcha. Personally, I think it comes down to general aesthetics. People find the Bess quite pleasing to the eye, at least I do. I'm a rifle person myself. I do enjoy playing with the smoothbores, but they more or less seem like a novelty, to some extent. I like them all, well except inlines....
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2018
- Messages
- 3,224
- Reaction score
- 2,285
Brown Bess Muskets, in particular the long land patterns, have just as much a place in American History as the Charleville(s). I would even make an argument that the Spanish 1752 musket has a very important role in American History in the South, notably in Florida, Louisiana and Texas.
You have to remember that the Bess was the primary arm used by the American provincial forces in the French and Indian War and older Long Lands, militia muskets, contracts Bess’s and bess style fusils were used primarially by provisional militia and later on stores of these were used in the earlier part of the war by the fledgling continental army.
Many American made muskets were also patterned after the Brown Bess. The Charleville pattern was an officially adopted until after the War.
You have to remember that the Bess was the primary arm used by the American provincial forces in the French and Indian War and older Long Lands, militia muskets, contracts Bess’s and bess style fusils were used primarially by provisional militia and later on stores of these were used in the earlier part of the war by the fledgling continental army.
Many American made muskets were also patterned after the Brown Bess. The Charleville pattern was an officially adopted until after the War.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
