Black Powder - refresh me please...

[BullRunBear]

My 54 caliber Renegade prefers 2F but that might be just that rifle. I use 3F for the 50 calibers and smaller and all the pistols, revolvers and cartridges. And I've used black powder well over 30 years old with no problem.

I've used both 3F and 4F in flinter pans. Either will do the job but I was given several pounds of 4F which is more than a life time supply for me so that's what I keep in the priming canister.

Jeff

 

[SgtMaj65]

I use 2f in both my percussion .50 GPR and .50 T/C Renegade ”” both Goex and Olde Eynsford with PRBs. I tried 3f in both and I have to say, I don't really like it as well as the 2f. The Olde Eynsford does pour much better than the regular Goex. My rifles just like 2f better, and I like my range targets better as well. I don't use anything but BP.

 

[Elkeater]

In your 54 trials keep in mind that 90g of 2f is about equivalent to 60g of 3f.

I thought the general rule of thumb was to reduce your load by 10%. That makes 90 grain charge of 2f roughly the same as an 80 grain charge of 3f...

Am I wrong? :idunno:

:hmm: I don't have a definitive answer, but according to my Lee dipper set for any given volume you can expect 8% greater increase in the weight of 3F vs. 2F.
How that relates to actual performance? No answer. My anecdotal evidence would suggest that 3F is more than 10% hotter than 2F though.

I got that from the Lyman BP Handbook. Their testing used Goex 2f and 3f in a 54 with round ball.

Assuming you are measuring by volume; we get more weight with the smaller granules and more surface area is exposed to the fire. Faster and more complete burning with 3f. Less waste.

After that test they decided to use 3f in 54 and smaller, 2f in 58 and larger for the development of their tables.

Accuracy was not considered since guns like what they like.

I celebrated Independence Day morning with 2 smoke poles. Hope ya'll enjoy your's!

 

[dsayer]

Interesting. Thanks!
So, in the Lyman book, when they were referencing 90gr 2F being equivalent to 60gr 3F, was that measuring by weight? If so, since many of us are measuring by volume, one would also need to account for the difference in weight per unit volume for 3F vs. 2F in any experiment comparing the two.

 

[Zonie]

Where did you find something in the Lyman book that said 90gr of 2F black powder was the equivalent of 60 grains of 3F?

I searched thru my Lyman "BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL", 2nd edition and I couldn't find anything that said that.

The book shows a lot of different powder loads but they don't seem to show that sort of equivalence either.

For instance, in the .45 caliber test the 90 grain 2F powder load under a patched roundball gave a velocity of 1825 fps.
The same barrel and roundball using 60 grains of 3F gave a velocity of 1719 fps.


Looking at a 50 caliber patched roundball test the 90 grain 2F load gave a velocity of 1651 fps while the 60 grain 3F load came in at 1566 fps.

The .54 caliber roundball loads also were not similar.
The 90 grain 2F powder load gave a velocity of 1555 fps while the 60 grain 3F powder load was 1435 fps.

All of these velocities were using GOEX powder.

Just going by my past experience, I've found that I need to drop a 3Fg powder load about 10% to get my rifles to hit the same place on the target if the gun was sighted in using 2Fg powder.

 

[Elkeater]

In your 54 trials keep in mind that 90g of 2f is about equivalent to 60g of 3f.

I thought the general rule of thumb was to reduce your load by 10%. That makes 90 grain charge of 2f roughly the same as an 80 grain charge of 3f...

Am I wrong? :idunno:

No, your not wrong. I am not claiming 90/60 as a general rule. There are too many variables to do that; barrel length, charge amount, calibre....

Lyman BP Handbook 10th printing. Performance evaluation : 2f/3f Gearhart-Owen in .54 cal 43" barrel

In my rereading it, it appears that the charges are measured by weight not volume. My bad, :redface:

 

[Elkeater]

I woke up this morning thinking of this. If measured by weight the 2 powders performance would be closer. Measured by volume greater difference.

In this heat, whole house fans are popular. I gotta get out of the 140 degree attics and cool down my brain. I'll be back.

 

[Katahdin]

Lots of Owners Manuals are free and on line,take the time ,save the pain,,Great starting place.Old "Rule of thumb,fingers,face,head was,If you use FFF in place of FF down load the powder by 10% Put out by Pyrodex in their hand out and in some loading manuals.Half hour on line could save you long time pain,your choice.As you can see from all the postings,lots information,which ones are fact and which are Opinions !!!!
Volume always!!! a cup of oatmeal is the same VOLUME as a cup of lead,they do differ in weight but are the same volume.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Being a long time reloader of just about everything that goes bang, the only way to get a truly even charge across all the types and granulation, would be to measure energy. That's pretty hard to do without a lot of sophisticated equipment. Since black powder contains a specific chemistry across all (real) black powders the granulation is the difference. By weight, a specific quantity of powder will contain a specific amount of energy, regardless of the volume. Granulation will change the burn rate, but not the amount of energy that it contains.
The only way to get absolutely consistent charges is to weight them. I will add though, at the distances that most of us shoot black powder it's not going to make a whole lot of difference if we are up or down 10% or even more on volume. Point of impact will change, 95% of the shots will still be minute of deer. Pick a powder and a load, measure by volume or weight, and stick with it. Stay consistent with that load, adjust the sights to match.
Eat more meat!!!

 

[Mr. Troll]

I guess I have to beg to differ with you about "minute of a deer". Maybe it's just me, but I weigh all my charges. No not necessarily in "grains" but they are all the same. As a test,on Independence Day, I shot 9 rounds of PRB from my customized Bobcat. The first 5 were measured with a powder measure by eye. They are the ones with the orange pasters on them, The next 4 were with premeasured charges. They are the unmarked ones. The distance was 50 yards. The difference is petty obvious. To be fair, I'm not a hunter. I have been into precision target shooting since 1964.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Well Troll, you can disagree all you want, and it is very unlikely you will change my mind on the subject, and I am certainly not trying to change your mind, heck, I don't even know you, but I do admire your spirit.
Looks to me like you made my point for me.....I don't have any idea what "premeasured" means to you. Was that weighed or volume "pre" measured?
However,,, Looks like the weighed (weighed?) group is the better group. Right? That's what I said, best consistency would be weighing..
The entire spread of all 9 of your balls balls is less than 6".
White tail is commonly stated to be a 6" kill zone, hereby recognized by all hunters as "minute of deer". Anything in the zone is an assured kill.
BTW, when I did the same thing, I shot at 75 meters (~82 yards) which is my average deer hunt with blackpowder and all (10) of mine were inside 3". 5 were weighed, 5 were measured by volume. The 5 shot with weight measured were a bit tighter group than the volume measured ones. Shot with a TC Hawken with a 32" Green Mountain barrel. Maybe you need to measure your powder like I do...
(I use a volume adjustable CVA with a barrel snout on it.)
I do not normally take the time to actually weigh black powder for short ranges of 100 or less. I do weight my powder to (+/-).05gr for 1K long range. (Not a muzzleloader). I can tell you for certain that as little as .1 grain variance at 1,000 yards will create a miss on a 6" target even in a still wind.
BTW, in case you don't believe that I can shoot a smoker that well, just ask, there are several here on this forum that have come out to the range with me for a morning of shooting.
But, it's all good no matter how you do it, the important thing is you are thinking and experimenting, and that makes you better.

 

[Gene L]

I weigh charges and put them in glass vials but not for accuracy's sake...I'm not good enough a shot that it matters. Also, any test with multiple shots fired has a lot of freight attached to it, like bore fouling, etc.

I found that with FFFG powder, volume measurement almost exactly equaled grain measurement, which really surprised me. A lot. I measured 10 volume/grain examples and finally quit since I didn't get enough difference to matter.

 

[Mr. Troll]

This was done with T-7. The premeasured charges were by weight (averages of 10 "by eye" measured charges) so they can be consistent. The ones I did at the range varied a bit, but the ones that were done beforehand by weight did not vary at all. It's more important in the smaller charge volume, like a revolver (especially a .36) since a couple of grains either way equals a larger percentage of the total. Weighing out my charges and having them in plastic tubes also saves a lot of time at the range. I came there to shoot, not fool around.

 

[Jimbo47]

This was done with T-7. The premeasured charges were by weight (averages of 10 "by eye" measured charges) so they can be consistent. The ones I did at the range varied a bit, but the ones that were done beforehand by weight did not vary at all. It's more important in the smaller charge volume, like a revolver (especially a .36) since a couple of grains either way equals a larger percentage of the total. Weighing out my charges and having them in plastic tubes also saves a lot of time at the range. I came there to shoot, not fool around.

I'm curious because I also shoot T7, and I noticed that when I swab the bore after a shot, that it doesn't seem to have burned completely, noticing a few granuals each time after running the patch.
Wouldn't that negate the accuracy of weighing the charge with T7 especially?
I also shoot minute of deer and I might have a flyer or two as in your photo, but they are still MOD.
Once I shoot out all my T7 I'm going all black.

 

[Adui]

lately I've seen a lot of folks saying they weigh the charges. What I'm not seeing even once is anyone mentioning that the actual weight of real BP is different from the actual weight of the subs.

For instance, if memory serves, Pyrodex P is approximately only 2/3'd +/- the weight of true black powder when compared by volume. This means if I weigh a charge of Pyrodex out at 80 grains I am loading roughly 104 grains equivalent by volume. This is a near max charge for my rifle. What if I was loading loads closer to max??

All of our manuals giving charge weights are saying to measure by volume for a reason. If someone new to this game sees so many saying weight the charge, without suggesting lower weights for subs; someone is going to get hurt by overcharging a gun and it blowing up.

I get that those who practice this apparently know what they are doing well enough to know the difference in weight between real black and the subs. But can we PLEASE stop insisting this is a safe practice without giving the critical information of knowing the difference in weight by volume?

Sorry, rant over, I'll get off my soapbox now..

Be safe folks, we only have one life to live!

My math is off, but this chart makes my point:

BP conversion chart

 

[Griz44Mag]

Adui,
Since I don't play in the substitute game it does (did) not occur to me to even think about them. I only do real black. You are right, anytime we discuss weighing charges we need to know what that material is. Next time I am able to get bench time, I will weigh out 2f and 3f to exactly the same weight and put the magnetospeed on the gun and see if there is a significant energy release difference, manifested by a change in velocity since I have no way to measure actual BTU of energy from burning powders.
(That's just another excuse to go out and shoot)

 

[Adui]

Griz, :thumbsup: My concern was more for those who start out with the subs than the difference between 2f and 3f black, but heck if I gave you another excuse to shoot I've done something good here! :grin:

 

[hanshi]

I usually weigh my charges but only after I work up a volume load in a measure. I do that only because I get curious as to the weight of the powder my measure holds. I don't do any formal target shooting; I hunt and shoot just for fun. I'm not nearly the good shot I once was so I normally see no difference between pre-measured/weighed/etc, on targets. I still hit game with my rifles, though. Having killed deer at long ranges (for the Deep South) I still want as accurate a load as possible. I guess you'd say I'm just very casual about loads and shooting, nowadays.

 

[Mr. Troll]

Exactly. Once I got the rifle grouping well with a volume load, I weigh ten volume loads and average them so I can duplicate the load exactly. As I remember, the 70 "grain" load of T-7 weighs like 44 grains...I have it all written down. As far as left over T-7, It takes 2 hot water patches to clean up the bore to as clean as new. Then one oil patch. I wish I could try real black again, just to see if it's what I remember from the '60's, but there is none to be found in my area, and I refuse to pay haz-mat extortion to get it shipped in. I would like to try Black MZ, but the same problem exists...the closest place to get it is 250 miles away. I tried Pyrodex, and it's ok, but the T-7 burns clean and seems to have more energy.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I wish I could try real black again, just to see if it's what I remember from the '60's, but there is none to be found in my area, and I refuse to pay haz-mat extortion to get it shipped in.

It's simple economics.
If you buy from a store, you still pay hazmat and shipping, it's in the cost of the product. The "extortionist" still gets paid.

Here in my area, only 1 business sells black powder, they are 25 miles from me,
Storefront black powder
5# of black powder, + tax
5 * 28.50 * 1.0825 = $154.26

Online order of black powder
5# * 16.80 + 19.50 hazmat + 12.80 freight = $116.30

Saves $37.96

Add percussion caps and it gets even better.
Store caps at 8.50/100, on line at 4.20/100
These are included in the already mentioned fees above when shipped at the same time.

Get together with the local shooters and do a group buy of 50# powder and caps, you can save some major cash.

So one more time because I don't understand who's ripping you off, who is the extortionist?