Barrel underlug screw up!!!

[Geoff Jones]

I think I've really screwed up here... I'm almost done with final stock shaping on the Bucks county rifle I'm building. I set the stock aside to take a break, and decided as a change of pace to start polishing the barrel (a job I don't particularly like to do).

Anyway, I put the barrel in the vice and decided to run an oiled patch down the bore just as a little added protection and to make sure all is well and no rust had snuck in. Imagine my horror as I felt a hesitation about half way down. It wouldn't stop the patch and jag...but definitely could feel something. I measured with the ramrod and it's EXACTLY where the center underlug is located.

This is a Colerain, .50 cal B profile swamped. And yes...I know how thin the walls are in the waist of the barrel. Because of this...I made the dovetail particularly shallow, 1/16th or less. The only thing I can figure is when I gently used the punch to set the underlug I somehow dented the barrel.

It's mighty difficult to photograph the inside bore but if you look at the picture you can see on the top a slight line... Also included a photo of the lug so you can see it's not too deep.

I unbreached the barrel and ran a patched .495 ball down...It definitely hesitated, but a little bump was needed to push past the "dent".

Help! What to do?

(can't get photos to post...too wide)

 

[Mike Brooks]

Been there done that. :cry: The first one I got a new barrel as three of the lugs dented the bore. The next one was only one lug and as luck would have it it was on a spec gun. I shot it extensivly and it caused no problems. I sold it with a notice to the new owner of the problem . He has since reported no problems and it's the best shooting rifle he has ever owned. ::

 

[Geoff Jones]

let's try these photos again...

 

[TANSTAAFL]

That lug looks like it is dovetailed quite deep.

I have seen adjustable expanders made for dents in shotgun barrel bores. Maybe a snug fitting, exact land sized plug (with a long tapered lead on it) could be gently used to bump the dimple back out. If me, I would remove the lug when I tried this.

 

[Geoff Jones]

Lug depth measures 1/16th. This barrel is quite thin at the waist measuring only 3/4 inch. Now I think I see why Jim Chambers won't use anything less than a "C" profile.

 

[Stophel]

This is why I am scared to death of thin barrel walls.

1/16" is too deep. You need to be only about 1/32" or so. I fit my tenons tight and then solder them in also...not period correct, I suppose, but you ain't gonna knock them suckers out!!! You'd be surprised how THIN the dovetails can be on old guns.

Actually, on one that is really thin like this, the best way to do it is to simply set the tenon on the bottom of the barrel and solder it on (lead or tin), then you never have to worry about whether or not you're too deep. I've done this once or twice.

 

[Geoff Jones]

Thanks....and I've learned my lesson. No more B profile barrels and I'm working on my soldering skills.

But the question remains....what to do about the current situation? :thumbsup:
geoff

 

[Birddog6]

People do things diferently, as do I. Personally, I would cut the barrel in half so nobody can use it & then use it myself to practice engraving on & mark it off to good experience. No way I would use a barrel with a bad spot in it......... I would never feel comfortable with it or using it myself or selling it. May never be a problem, but it would always bother me......
I would buy a new barrel & do it all over but not so deep this time. Since you already have pinned the barrel in, measure how high the underlug is now & try to make the new one the same overall height but not as deep in the barrel of course. File the base down first, then install it into the barrel. This way the exterior part of the base is not into the wood where you inletted, as by setting it not as deep into the barrel, you will have more base sticking out from the barrel & more overall height too, so you may have to take a lil off both, so get your measurments first. Use the old barrel as a tinplate to mark where to put the dovetails.

On thing I notice is the type of underlug you used & it is a tall thick one. I use those on heavy barrel Jaegers for the front sling swivel cause they are so heavy & thick. This type of underlug makes me want to go too deep so I seldom use them as it is way more than ncessary. I suggest you use a smaller one next time such as this on on the left of my photo & you can slim them down even more if necessary to .025 - .030 base & they still hold fine. The one on the right appears to be what you are using. You can get the small ones slotted or not & purchase them at Track of the Wolf or Tip Curtis Frontier Shop.

And while we are on the subject, for some reason guys want to anchor these things like we are anchoring the Titanic, and you have to remember it is just wood. Small chance of the dovetail coming out, but if you jank hard enough you may have a handfull of splinters, NOT the dovetail come out. (99% of the time) You can even leave them lose in the dovetail. Where is it gonna go ? It can't go anywhere. Cut then in .30" or so and a very LIGHT stake if the fit is loose & let it go. Now if you want a lil deeper on the muzzle end, well you have the meat there & OK. But go easy in the thin parts of these swamped A & B barrels.......

:results:

 

[Stophel]

I would try Tanstaafl's steel slug idea. But then, I would probably do what Birddog says...get a new barrel. That kind of thing would just drive me nuts. (LOTS of things drive me nuts!) Just solder on the new tenon in the middle. Dovetail the rest normally.

I cut my tenons quickly out of 1/2" square steel stock. Only takes a couple minutes. I make the tenon itself about maybe 1/8" wide...I like heavy duty tenons, PLUS they're easier to inlet than those awful skinny store-bought ones. In fact, I did this just today. Took me 3 hours to cut out, dovetail, fit, and inlet all 4 tenons on my barrel. It is not a fun task, and actually is rather tedious, though not hard at all.

 

[Zonie]

I don't know if they can do it because of the rifleing but, it might be worth your while to contact the barrel maker and tell him about your problem. He might be able to rework the damaged area back to size.

If it were a smooth bore, lapping or honeing or reaming would not be a big problem. A special reamer might be made to pilot in the bore and cut out the indented material.
It's worth a shot.

I had a similar barrel lug problem that led to the creation of my B Gun. The difference was I was drilling for a staple style lug and drilled thru the wall. I was fortunate though because the damage was at the front lug. :curse: :curse:
This explains why my gun has a 30 1/2 inch barrel instead of a 37 inch length. :shocking:

 

[rich pierce]

I'd not sell it. The trouble is not just the thin-ness but the notch. It's the middle one so that's better than the breech one but you've stressed that barrel. I'd lap it with a lead lap and then I'd proof it. Trouble is, you don't know who's going to get that rifle down the line. So even if you decide to use it for target and not heavy loads, you can't control what happens when the gun moves on to another owner.

 

[BLAHMAN]

I'd cut the barrel at that lug, then I'd see if I could get real creative and see if I could build a short little gun outa it.

I wouldn't shoot it nor sell it, ya don't know who might be stuffing what knows down the barrel and that could result in somebody gettin hurt.......that would give a black eye to the whole muzzleloading fraternity for sure.....don't need that!

How far from the breech is that middle lug anyway?

 

[Geoff Jones]

Blahman,
21 1/2 inches from the breech.

 

[Birddog6]

Cut the barrel in half with a hack saw, it is scrap. After you cut it in half see if the barrel is bored off center. If it is Obviously bored off center & it caused you to get into the bore, call Scott Keller at Colerain & tell him you have a barrel that was bored off center & you got into the bore because of this. He will want to see it & most likely he will send you a new replacement barrel if they are ar fault. (A few thousands off center is nothing, but allot is allot & could have been the culprit) Scott was very helpful with me on a problem I had with a "A" barrel & I feel he will help you also if it is a manufacturers problem.

Should this be the problem & he agrees, send him your old one & ask him to breech it with YOUR breechplug as you already have the rifle in the white. Also tell him that you want HIM to personally check to insure it is breeched correctly.

If that don't work, buy a barrel from him anyway & go on with the rifle.

:m2c:

Better to be safe than sorry......

PS: Tell him to send the old barrel back as you want it for a tinplate to do the dovetails on the new barrel.

 

[Darkhorse]

Another way to avoid this in the future is not to stake the lug into place with a punch as this focus's displacement of material.
You can lift the front of the dovetail with a chisel, insert the lug, then tap down the lifted metal until the lug or sight tightens up.
But I think Birddog had a pretty good idea. I didn't see the kind of metal upset I would look for to cause the problems you are describing. All kinds of things can happen when machining metal just maybe the bore is off center and you can get a new barrel.

 

[Geoff Jones]

Thanks to everyone for their collective wisdom. I think I knew before I even posted that I couldn't with clear conscience allow this barrel to ever be fired. Birddog...you hit it on the head (as usual). I'm following your suggestion but in slightly different order. I think I'll order a new barrel, use the old as a template and finish the rifle. Then, cut the old barrel in half and see if it's bored off center (I really doubt it). But, if it is I'll contact Mr Keller at Colerain.

Expensive lesson learned...I'm changing to the smaller lugs, soldering where appropriate and probably sticking to thicker barrels in the future...
Thanks again...Geoff

 

[Darkhorse]

I think the term "bored off center" is really inaccurate in todays manufacturing process. Instead of boring a hole in a piece of hex stock, which by the way was very hard to do perfectly straight. Most of todays barrel makers will drill the hole then put the blank between centers and mill the flats/swamp. This helps keep the bore perfectly centered.
However centers that put too much pressure on the barrel can flex it (not likely but possible) causing it to be machined at different thicknesses.
Or more likely, the tooling was probably dull.
A dull tool will push off and not make a true cut or a dull tool can draw material into it. Both of which makes for an inaccurate cut.
Then if the tool is changed and the new tool cuts properly and the barrel is not scrapped, then one side of the barrel wall will be thicker than the other.
The result is the same as a hole bored off center. Except a little worse because the hole is not now straight but now has a little bend in it.
By the way, did you run a patch through the barrel before you staked in the tabs? Maybe you had this problem all along and just didn't know it.

 

[Geoff Jones]

By the way, did you run a patch through the barrel before you staked in the tabs? Maybe you had this problem all along and just didn't know it. [/quote]

Yes, I unbreached the barrel to inlet just the barrel into the stock blank. I usually run an oiled patch down the bore just for a little added protection during building. I'm absolutely positive that the indent was not present.

Thanks for the thought...but I simply made a stupid mistake...no way around it!
geoff

 

[Zonie]

A thought for your sawed off barrel:

Quoting from the Pecatonica River catalog:

MOUNTAINEER REPAST
"Ken Allaman, a Buckskinner and Montana guide, convinced us to produce these stocks to make the well known "blanket gun" that can be seen in museums that depict the fur-trade era...
These guns were originally the result of Indians cutting back on the N.W. or Trade gun. The short size allowed the gun to be tied to the belt...or dangled under a blanket from a thong tied thru the butt stock and slung over the shoulder. The small size made this gun a good weapon to use on horse back, particularly sinse it was easy to load...."

It has a 14 1/2 inch barrel and the stock is cut off leaving only about 2 1/2 inches of the stocks comb.

You could buy a really cheap, plain Maple, Half stock blank for the wood.

It may be totally un-PC with a rifled bore but it could be a fun gun to build and own and it would provide a use for your short barrel. ::

 

[Geoff Jones]

A thought for your sawed off barrel:

Quoting from the Pecatonica River catalog:

MOUNTAINEER REPAST
::

Zonie,

Man, you're scarin' me now....I just went to Pecatonica's website about 10 minutes ago and read that description. I thought of it earlier when I realized I'd have 20+ inches of good barrel...

Just goes to show ...we old farts all think alike! :thumbsup: