Annual debate

[Spikebuck]

In a few years, crossbows will evolve into true "arrow guns" with no external "bow" arms worthy of the name and magazines feeding bolts into modern looking upper receivers.

I saw a repeating crossbow in action in the historical DVD "Archery - Its History and Forms"

Since this was invented literally millennia ago, I'm sure a crossbow mfg could have a working version out in very little time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow

 

[XXX]

I have no doubt that they are on the way and they will ultimately lead to the rollback of the traditional long archery seasons. Some of the "tactical" examples already on the market look exactly like assault rifles and will also likely cause some states to start treating archery equipment like firearms for licensing purposes. Anyway, back to the topic.

As near as I can tell, the original archery seasons and the original muzzleloading seasons were unique in the sense that they were lobbied for and put in place with the intent that participants were deliberately choosing to hunt with throwback, archaic weapons compared to the contemporary sporting weapons of the time. The rest of the sporting world, as a group, has never claimed to be seeking anything less than the maximum technical advantage allowed by law. The primitive sport hunting movement at first seemed to show great promise. ALdo Leopold wrote in 1949;

"Not all sports have degenerated to the same extent as duck hunting.Defenders of the American tradition still exist. Perhaps the bow and arrow movement and the revival of falconry mark the beginning of a reaction. The net trend, however, is clearly toward more and more mechanization..."

Seems like the net trend has killed the revival. What the archers and smokepole advocates did wrong was presume that the modern hunters would be content to remain in their modern seasons and not demand equal opportunity. They have always intended that THAT opportunity should be as modern as they wanted and not what the Traditionalists wanted. The game commissions also failed to take into account the inevitable attempts by the sporting goods industry to engineer around the laws as written and produce weapons that are technically complaint with the original intent yet are the antithesis of the spirit that these seasons were created in. I have not read the language describing the regulatory parameters of the Penn Flintlock season, but if it does not contain some kind of preamble suggesting that the intent of the season is to celebrate the Pennsylvania Longrifle and as such, only period inspired sporting muzzleloaders are allowed, then the chances are pretty good that it will eventually be lost to compromise with the modernists.

 

[cynthialee]

This is to the debate in general and not aimed at any particular person in this debate....

A house divided can not stand.

Here in Washington in my local Game Management Unit (GMU) I have a 2 week window of opportunity to hunt with my muzzleloader for deer. That is it. Now I will apply for a multi-season pass that I am not quarantined to pull. But the odds are not great....
Now I could get in more hunting if I traveled the state to other areas for the late muzzle loader season but I don't have the time or money for that.
I could get a modern hunting license and get a longer hunting season, but I like the fact that muzzle loaders get to go before modern and right after the archers. The deer are not as spooked during the muzzle loader season. There is no one I know of in the area that hunts archery season in our piece of forest.

I have three two week periods I think it was (not looking for my game manual to get the exact number) for turkey spread across the year. So that isn't too bad.


Anyways I rambled....

Not very many people hunt. I have literally been called a murderous and vile person that should be locked away because I am a killer. Over rabbits! Rabbits. So many women I have known over the years are anti hunting and fishing in any way. No amount of explaining to them that we need to hunt to maintain healthy deer herds will get through. "Nature will balance"...Yeah maybe before we killed off all the wolf packs and grizzly bears. Without pinnacle predators it falls to mankind.
Anywhoo...
These women all vote. Most men I know blow it off or forget. But the men I know who are anti gun, anti hunting and fishing all vote also.
This isn't adding up very well in our favor.

So perhaps it would be better to suck it up and team up with the other hunters regardless of their tools?
Because there are people who don't care if you shoot Bambi with an obsidian arrow or a magnumitis rifle. The fact that Bambi is being killed at all is a crime in their eyes. And they intend on stopping it.

 

[Davemuzz]

That's because these A-1 steak sauce lovers honestly believe that meat does come from the grocery store.

Dave

 

[XXX]

A house divided can not stand.

Not very many people hunt......

Anywhoo...
These women all vote. Most men I know blow it off or forget. But the men I know who are anti gun, anti hunting and fishing all vote also.
This isn't adding up very well in our favor.

So perhaps it would be better to suck it up and team up with the other hunters regardless of their tools?
Because there are people who don't care if you shoot Bambi with an obsidian arrow or a magnumitis rifle. The fact that Bambi is being killed at all is a crime in their eyes. And they intend on stopping it.

I hear what you are saying, and to a certain degree I agree with you and understand your point. Unfortunately, clinging to each other out of necessity is probably not going to work. There is also the fact that an "Undivided House" can fall just as well as a divided one will, especially if you are significantly outnumbered. If we cannot achieve parity in numbers even if we band together and ignore the vices of the worst among us (poachers, slob hunters, The habitually unsafe, etc),out of desperation for numbers in our cause, how does it help us? we still lose any contest decided on numbers. What you are talking about is often called the "Big Tent", meaning, there is room for every manner and type of hunter and sportsman good or bad. In other words, the numbers are more important than the quality. Ask any Marine, at least an old one, if they think small numbers of high quality people are better than large numbers or marginal ones.

I know the anti hunting Radicals you describe, they adhere to this type of radical philosophy;

"All animals will not only be not shot, they will be protected -- not only from people but as much as possible from each other. Prey will be separated from predator, and there will be no overpopulation or starvation because all will be controlled by sterilization or implant."
Cleveland Amory, founder of The Fund For Animals, describing his ideal world

That kind of childish nonsense is so out of step with the real world and common sense that it appears to be the work of a mental deficient. The vast majority of the population, non-hunters and anti-hunters included, do not subscribe to that drivel. The fact is that the Anti hunting movements are really only a small part of the threat facing hunters. The main threat, and the one we have the most control over as citizen sportsmen, is the damage being done to the public image of hunting by the worst among us and those who claim to speak for and represent us. The "bad hunter" stories are plentiful enough and there is no need to list detailed examples here, but if you were to go and read through some mainstream hunting forums out there you will find they contain plenty of threads started by hunters complaining about the behavior and actions of other hunters. If the actions of bad hunters has that kind of effect on hunters, think of how it impacts the opinion of the typical non-hunter. The answer to preserving the future of hunting lies not in clinging to the failed strategy of the Big tent, it lies in the conscious dedication to a higher standard of behavior and utter intolerance of anyone and anything that falls short of that standard.

***Note: None of the above should be taken to imply that I think people who do not hunt with Flintlocks are "bad" hunters. My earlier posts were in regard to the original topic of the integrity of the Penn Flintlock season. This was a response to a broader commentary of hunting in general.

 

[Billnpatti]

Much wisdom there. I concur. :hatsoff:

 

[Billnpatti]

I feel your frustration but I would welcome having areas set aside for the exclusive use of archers and other primative weapons that do not use gun powder. But I would also expect to have areas set aside for the exclusive use of those who hunt with strictly traditional muzzleloaders. Then have areas where those wanting to use inline muzzleloading rifles and other modern weaponry could hunt. If you had such areas, you would need only one deer season, one squirrel season, one turkey season, etc. The hunter would simply go to the area that is set aside for the kind of weapon he chooses to use. There would be no need for a muzzleloading season(s), an archery season(s), etc. Not separate seasons for each type of weapon, but different areas for each kind of weapon. :2

I know we don't agree on this point but I still like you anyway. :thumbsup: I forgive you for being wrong. :blah: I think having separate hunting areas for each kind of weapon is a seed of an idea and worthy of feeding and watering.

 

[FishDFly]

"Not separate seasons for each type of weapon, but different areas for each kind of weapon."

Since Texas is 98% privately owned, where would you propose this to be set up?

Not on my ranch, will it happen. The land owner has the final say in Texas whether you hunt, how you hunt and what you are going to pay to hunt. Don't like the rules, the gate stays locked.

Some how I do not see the King Ranch and the other major ranches allowing your ideas to be adopted. If Texas Parks and Wildlife attempted to do such, their would be a lot of job openings in Austin.

It seems when a small majority do not get their way they complain very loudly.

When Texas M/L hunters wanted to take part of October to hunt, the bow hunters which are a much larger group closed ranks and sent the M/L's to January in a limited number of counties after general gun season closes.

Each state is vastly different, I like what Texas does and do want to have to draw for a permit to hunt and may have to wait many years to get one permit if ever.

 

[satx78247]

EXACTLY SO.
(Our archery club has 2 LARGE ranches leased. One is 7,000 acres & one over 10,000.)

By "special permission" the ranch managers allow a FEW hunters each year to use anything but bow/arrows.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

EXACTLY SO. = Fyi, I regard "anti-gunners" & "animal rights advocates" as HATERS, KOOKS, WIERDOS, MORONS & BIGOTS.

yours, satx

 

[FishDFly]

EXACTLY SO.
(Our archery club has 2 LARGE ranches leased. One is 7,000 acres & one over 10,000.)

By "special permission" the ranch managers allow a FEW hunters each year to use anything but bow/arrows.

yours, satx

I do not bow hunt, my choice, but I do not condemn those who do.

I see the challenge in what bow hunters do, just not on my place.

I believe bow hunters bother/displace deer less than gun hunters which I appreciate, my place is just too heavily wooded to bow hunt and then find them when they run off. I understand how the bow kills and how a rifle kills.

 

[FishDFly]

EXACTLY SO. = Fyi, I regard "anti-gunners" & "animal rights advocates" as HATERS, KOOKS, WIERDOS, MORONS & BIGOTS.

yours, satx

You missed one group, sister-in-laws.

 

[Davemuzz]

I won't say that I "stole" this from another site that I post too, but I will say that I like what this fellow posted and I think he pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments. Especially here in Pennsylvania with increased predication from coyotes (that 20 years ago we simply didn't have here) and 30 years ago, any hunter could simply knock on any landowners door and hunt on his land. Today, landowners, even those who have owned the land for 50 years, take a much different view of hunters. Why? Ask the landowner. I couldn't tell you.

But, here is the fellows words:

Whining about everything is the new national pastime.

Makes me think of the mantra Marines live by: Improvise, Adapt, overcome..

I could get in a long post about all the factors I think have contributed, but I will try to be brief.

1) Fewer hunters. In the heyday in the big woods it was hard to find a parking place. Deer were chased all day by hunters walking around.. no tree stands in those days.
2) Hunting tactics have changed.. brought about by tree stands and lack of access to private property. Most hunters sit in a tree for hours with deer bedded within 100 yards. Neither knows the other is there.
3) habitat has changed. The big woods has gotten bigger. Without acorns, there is no reachable browse for the deer. A 100 year timber harvest plan equates to only about 7-8% of the forest being reachable for browse. When timber reaches pole stage it is of little value to browsing deer.
4) Fawn predation by bears and coyotes. Bears and coyotes were a rare sight 50 years ago.
5) Disease.. may be a by-product of bans on insecticides, eg. DDT. I think the die off from EHD may be more significant in some areas than is evident.
6) Highway mortality. More cars and more roads. Even though you may walk all day and not see a deer in the woods, it is likely you pass by several grease spots on the road every day. It would be interesting to see stats on road kills in 1965 vs 2013.
7) Poaching is a factor, although I don't think it much worse than it ever was. Periodic pockets of activity can however have an effect.
8) Lifestyle changes. Most of us have such urban and busy lifestyles we are not as connected to nature as we once were, ie.. our woodsman skills may not be as sharp. One or two days a year chasing deer does not make one another Larry Benoit. Speaking of the Benoits, those guys used to hunt the really big woods of Maine where deer were a rare commodity. They would track a buck for days to get a shot.
9) I mentioned above access to private property. It has become an issue. Years ago a fella could drive down the road almost anywhere in rural PA and park the car and take the gun for a walk. Not anymore. Deer are not completely stupid critters, they easily become habituated not only to food sources whether they be natural or bait piles, they also learn where to hide and not be disturbed.

I could go on, but I think there are many factors behind the whining that go well beyond complaining about the deer management programs of the PGC..

I will summarize with what I think is the single most critical component of deer numbers: habitat. Unfortunately, a lot of habitat loss can be attributed to overly abundant deer numbers in the past. The deer ate themselves out of house and home. No food. No cover. Barren woods throughout much of the northern tier.

Just this old Nimrod's opinion..

 

[FishDFly]

Today, landowners, even those who have owned the land for 50 years, take a much different view of hunters. Why? Ask the landowner. I couldn't tell you.



When I was in the Air Force in Oklahoma in the mid 1970s I could gain access to land to hunt and fish by asking. I would come out on the weekends and help the land owner with work that needed to be done. When I left Oklahoma, free access was not possible.

Now after deer season here, we fill the back of a Toyota pickup with beer cans that were not there before deer season.

We pick up their garbage bags they throw on the side of the road instead of them taking garbage home with them.

Last year on Thanksgiving Day there constant shotgun fire next to one of my tracks of land. Went to investigate, there was a group of deer hunter's next door throwing skeet into my pasture and shooting at them. Broken skeet were everywhere in my hay meadow. I called the land owner and they were off the lease by dark that day, no refund on their lease money.

Trespassers, do not want to go into that discussion. I have signs offering a $1,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of "anyone" caught trespassing, these surround my place.

I have had friends and relatives who cannot follow the posted ranch rules which are posted on the wall for all to read. Reading the rules is a requirement prior to hunting or fishing.

My ranch is my house, do not violate the rules, this is not "Burger King", it's my way not your way.


"Today, landowners, even those who have owned the land for 50 years, take a much different view of hunters. Why? Ask the landowner. I couldn't tell you."

 

[Davemuzz]

So, everyone who wears cammo or FO is a pig? I know of those types of hunters. They don't hunt with me nor I with them.

Dave

 

[Twowithone]

Many hunters share your same thoughts I being one of them. A buck is a buck its a trophy too whoever harvested this animal. Oh wait cant shoot it it,s only got 2 points per side. Hogwash period thanks Gary Alt. :cursing:

 

[Twowithone]

Pennsylvania hunting is sure changing and not for the good as I see. Its called flintlock season after Christmas not in-line season.Ive been hunting since 78 in Pa and seen some big changes. The word tradition anymore is just that a word. Todays hunters in Pa. want it just their way and screw everyone else that gets in the way period. Some group of nimrods are now trying too change the starting date of buck season which always opened up the first Monday after Thanksgiving for as long as I can remember. I could go on and on with AR/HR all day spring gobbler hunting its just getting me closer to hang it up period. :cursing:

 

[Davemuzz]

I've given this "land use" and "land ownership" some thought as well. Now, I don't want to come across as taking a position that landowners are a bunch of high-horse "it's mine so you stay off" kind of people. In fact, I can't stand "bunching" or "grouping" any class of individuals into some "type" of something. Because none of that holds any water. Also, I don't want to classify non-landowner hunters as all "slob hunters" as that isn't a true statement.

However, from a somewhat objective standpoint what I see in a lot of post (both landowners, and non-landowner\hunters) is this "ME" attitude. IMHO, I think that is a "generational" issue. Why do I say that? Because people from my Fathers generation (my late father would now be 92) and my Grandfather (maternal) who owned a farm (and if alive today would be 112) did not have those attitudes. In fact, most people didn't have to ask him to hunt his farm. He knew who they were. If he didn't, they would usually hunt a row up to the house and then stop and ask. I never recall him not allowing anyone hunting privileges. Ever.

Today, what you have is second and even third generation landowners with the "it's mine so stay the he#$ off of it" attitude.

On the other side of the coin, the hunters back in the day would never even think of leaving a shot shell or rifle brass on the ground. Let alone gut gloves, coffee cups, lunch bags, or any other assorted trash. But today's thinking is "hey....just drop it...the wind will carry it away."

Hence we have two mentalities clashing. And a good outcome just isn't going to occur. :stir:

So, private land is tougher to find and public land is getting more use....and more stress.

Maybe I'm wrong, hey.....I've been there before.

Dave

 

[Twowithone]

Its the me me me crowd that want to bring their in-lines into a special season. The Game Law book even says Flintlock,season not 209 ignition caps for in-lines for cripes sake. Your right about the people hunting today though compared to the hunters back in the day. :cursing:

 

[XXX]

I've given this "land use" and "land ownership" some thought as well...... .
people from my Fathers generation (my late father would now be 92) and my Grandfather (maternal) who owned a farm (and if alive today would be 112) did not have those attitudes. In fact, most people didn't have to ask him to hunt his farm. He knew who they were. If he didn't, they would usually hunt a row up to the house and then stop and ask. I never recall him not allowing anyone hunting privileges. Ever.

Today, what you have is second and even third generation landowners with the "it's mine so stay the he#$ off of it" attitude.

On the other side of the coin, the hunters back in the day would never even think of leaving a shot shell or rifle brass on the ground. Let alone gut gloves, coffee cups, lunch bags, or any other assorted trash. But today's thinking is "hey....just drop it...the wind will carry it away."

Hence we have two mentalities clashing. And a good outcome just isn't going to occur.
So, private land is tougher to find and public land is getting more use....and more stress.

Dave

I think you are exactly right. We cannot do much about the landowner who just hates hunting and posts his/her land, but hunters very often alienate landowners and the general public even when they are technically following all of the rules. The best example of this I can think of is the hunter he boldly walks right through a pasture or cornfield within shouting distance of the obvious owners dwelling. The land and the woods beyond may not be posted, and they may be just beyond the 150 feet or whatever safety zone requirement is in effect, but it still strikes people as bold and rude not to ask in advance. One guy doing this is bad enough, but a truckload of hunters driving up and dismounting to do a drive will probably get that land posted before the sun sets. Similarly, I think it is bad form to shoot within a few hundred yards of occupied houses unless they know or have reason to believe someone is hunting back there. Specific situations are all unique, but common sense and courtesies that were practiced by the earlier generations you mention are out of fashion today and we are paying the price for it with more posted land every day.
Thoughtlessness on the part of hunters can even do damage on publicly owned land. I practice shooting my stickbows in a sandpit on public land near my home. Many people walk dogs and access the property for any number of non hunting reasons every day. Last fall some clown killed a deer back there in September and left the gutpile lying right at the parking/access point stinking in the sun. He was even thoughtful enough to leave the broken carbon arrow sticking out like a calling card. There were more than a few comments about it from non hunters walking by and none of them were positive. Stupid thoughtless move. I ended up burying it myself. Hunters like this do far more damage than a 100 of the PETA boogeymen everyone is so worried about.